One possible suggestion on general scout skill:
I wonder if you could consider changing bow training to enable use of gun too - would make gun useable for all scouts and all x/s - as numbers in terms of dps/damage/speed are fairly balanced among bow/xbow/gun (i.e. faster weapon little less damage and vice versa) - I don't foresee much of a difference for scouts but would allow gun users to try few more combos.
Cheers.
Ch/S changes - first of all please note class has two hp dots to the extent of 8%, so to compensate for it I think the nerfs were not needed, def not to that extent - prior to change combo was cool but not op, and already got nerf similar to all champ classes, so not sure why extra nerfs were introduced, few suggestions:
1) Increased Fearless Shot cooldown to 3 seconds from 2. I am fine with increasing cd would make normal rune pulse trigger too now, but please increase range damage component by 25% then, keep applying rune pulse same
2) biggest issue: Changed Pulsing Shot to inflict damage only to your target and 1 target behind your target instead of your target and 4 targets around your target.
Couple of things - first this skill is annoying as it pushes you back which is problematic both since you cant play music and use it (very annoying!) + contradicts the champ mechanics where you have to white hit to have rune pulse instant. But at least before that skill gave option to have 4 mobs aoe - not very strong but nice option. Now... it has all unpleasantries and not enough to show for. I just dont understand the change especially to do it now after a sucker like me decided to make a gun... I just dont think its fair to change parts of the combo mechanics so drastically, i get changes in % etc but not completely change the skill which was one of the reasons to make a new weapon to try the combo. Please reconsider the change or implement the following:
a) just revert back to the original skill, push back penalty is good sacrifice when someone uses this, makes your white hits + shock overload not possible while you away
b) if you really feel it should not be an aoe (note it was just for 3-4 mobs closeby...) then make it single target, remove pushback and increase skill damage
Please look into it little bit more, else combo already not pleasant to play and I dont see many ppl playing it in a first place, I personally think if you keep it as is, I am not sure I would bother with the combo myself - it does have nice concepts, dont break it plz.
Regards,
Rakot
After seeing you are planning to make rofl harder, doing tons of nerfs in next patch... What about implementing hell rofl mode instead? Making harder ini with same loot 8 months after instance is out isn't fair for those guilds without golden gear I think. If you want more challenge make a new mode with extra loot so strong guilds can have fun and those in the process don't quit. Server finally have good amount of people, I wouldn't want them to leave.
- Added physical attack, attack speed and bad luck aura to Nayat, Siddartha and Krishna in Realm of Forgotten Legends Hard Mode.
I really hope this bad luck thing isn't about boxes rng because is already a disaster. We spent 22 minutes the other day to do the freaking event cose most boxes appear outside the room or never match our buffs.
I agree with Mado, I don't think it would be fair to new or newer players that after ~1year ini being out this changes would be implemented. I suggest you keep HM RoFL as is and instead implement diamond mode or whatever similar to how Raksha temple was done - in there implement those changes + add extra core for the last boss - so would be total of 2 and maybe some extra last boss loot there, like weapon/accessory/gear fragments. That would make more sense + current HM is clearly well polished and working well, so would only need to tweak the "diamond" mode.
Kind regards
This is all fine but we are talking about end game
That's the point. Are we only talking about endgame and one meta for everything, based on only our endgame experience?
New revised combo are so op relative to prev ones + red gear is really strong and red gear (at least chain idk about others) is super cheap now days, like few hundred dias per piece; so with that gear easily accessible i dont see why any lower level ini an issue. Problem with for example gorge is not gear - you dont need op gear there either, but you must have coordination to run few events + know strat; funny enough in terms of difficulty even now gorge is many times harder than rofl haha 
Please note this is true even though if i am not mistaken additional damage reduction is already implemented in rofl, so we all effectively nerfed there Thats why when you run lower lev ini you do so much more 
But in terms of balancing, I still think rofl must be used as a point of reference since this is a current end game.
I'm talking about players who might not have that much knowledge of the game yet or need some help but are willed to evolve and to do progress.
This is all fine but we are talking about end game Ideally, some skill level must be required + gear, but tbh for rofl gear is not that important in my opinion, you dont need to burst anything except 4th, but even then 4th you have a lot of time before raid cant outheal the dots. 5th does have some dps check but again if you have solid raid should not be an issue
My few cents
Display MoreWd/Wl vs Ch/Wl
I can't really tell much about this topic since I don't play chain classes, but can tell you what I saw in our runs from my perspective.
I think Warden/Warlock is/was about 20-30% better in overall dps than Champ/Warlock, at least it was in our runs on Friday and Sunday. Some bosses just got crushed by the Warden(s) with 50kk+ hits, especially on Balton a Warden reached over 400kk total dmg, which was insane, because our other dds had equal gear.
However Champ is much more defensive than Warden and dies much less through this potential. I don't think, Champ was/is too weak, but Warden/Warlock is definitively way too strong.
Wd/wl has strong burst, granted, but sustain and overall damage at least in my raids was behind several other combos - this is prior to the huge nerfs that are proposed. I also not a big fun of using Balton as a reference since lets face it, burst in rofl is hardly important while sustain dps and aoe are much more significant - the later two prior to proposed nerfs enabled combo to keep up with some other combos, but just that. Nerfs would just set it back and likely not many will bother with the combo again.
Forgot to mention - champ got nerf on the hp side recently so not sure if it dies much less than wd I would say its similar haha; Furthermore, I am not saying champ needs a buff, I am just puzzled with the idea that it needs a nerf on sustain - all my experience with running on a champ suggests its sustain is not as op as other combos + burst is not great as well, changes proposed will just make champ even less attractive to play
Display MoreDisplay MoreI 100% agree! Your justification "Champion was similar to other chain wearer classes in our observations, but it was kinda overperforming if raid is fast enough to do not lose Shock Overload in certain points, therefore we are reducing its sustain while keeping burst damage same and planning to rework Shock Overload in a future patch depending on class’ state after these changes" is not consistent with the experience from Sacred and also my experience in Hades, both are end game guilds with I suspect raids that are fairly fast enough LOL
I see 0 evidence that champ is overperforming in my raids, MANY other combos do better, I have no idea what data you are looking for, but in my raids champ is clearly not op - coupled with the placing aoe issue that was mentioned previously that does not work half the time... I disagree with the proposed change, it does not make any sense. Champ sustain is 100% not op LOL, not even close!
On a separate subject of wd/wl:
I asked to reconsider the sustain nerf and what do you do - you nerfed sustain even more: Essence of Poison poison damage gain decrease from 30% to 20% (10% damage nerf) AND Corruption of Nature physical damage gain decrease from 24% to 16% (8% damage nerf). The combo had sustain that was not as strong as other classes and yet you are nerfing it so much? I urge you or anyone else to show proof that the class was overperforming to warrant such nerf. This is crazy. I mentioned before, if you base your decisions on performance at lower level ini, this is not accurate as raids are mixed in terms of gear/skill, alot of ppl take it easy and dont even full buff - in my opinion only RoFL as main endgame should be used as a reference and even then gear differences should be taken into account.
The above changes should not be implemented, they are absolutely not consistent with my experience and just like Sere I am speechless and perplexed as to why you are doing it. The champ ISS helps everyone in the raid in a similar manner, so i cant even say your suggested nerf has its origin in the new ISS. Similarly, wd ISS while superior to the one we had before, does not warrant or explain why you want to nerf wd/wl to such extent.
Apologies for the long post, but all of this is disappointing and I strongly urge you to reconsider and not alienate the community, please listen to the feedback.
The fact that camps or wardens aren't overpeforming in your's raids doesn't mean that they do not in other groups. for example in my guild ROFL raids what i experience rouges are overperforming as well, especially r/w and his whirlwind and r/d with his poison dots. Addition to this is that when the full golden geared r/w delt (in my opinion) OP dmg against the background of other rouges, wd/wrl from our pt without such gear was not much weaker than him.
So the fact that something doesn't perform good in your raid pt, doesn't mean that it do not need adjustments.
Well yes, but thats what I am saying - champ is doing worse relative to other classes/combos, not like champ is barely on top lol, champ is supposed to be sustain the way it is atm, its burst is clearly not as strong as other classes and also sustain was not as strong as some other classes/combos - all of that makes the proposed changes hard to understand, does not make sense.
- Decreased Finishing Hammer 1-H hammer damage gain to 57.6%, 2-H hammer damage gain to 72%.*
I am honestly speechless. Champion already was underperforming, why another nerf ? Especially in fast groups other classes do much more damage. I don't see why anyone would play Champion over Warden or Warrior after this change, please reconsider it.
I 100% agree! Your justification "Champion was similar to other chain wearer classes in our observations, but it was kinda overperforming if raid is fast enough to do not lose Shock Overload in certain points, therefore we are reducing its sustain while keeping burst damage same and planning to rework Shock Overload in a future patch depending on class’ state after these changes" is not consistent with the experience from Sacred and also my experience in Hades, both are end game guilds with I suspect raids that are fairly fast enough LOL
I see 0 evidence that champ is overperforming in my raids, MANY other combos do better, I have no idea what data you are looking for, but in my raids champ is clearly not op - coupled with the placing aoe issue that was mentioned previously that does not work half the time... I disagree with the proposed change, it does not make any sense. Champ sustain is 100% not op LOL, not even close!
On a separate subject of wd/wl:
I asked to reconsider the sustain nerf and what do you do - you nerfed sustain even more: Essence of Poison poison damage gain decrease from 30% to 20% (10% damage nerf) AND Corruption of Nature physical damage gain decrease from 24% to 16% (8% damage nerf). The combo had sustain that was not as strong as other classes and yet you are nerfing it so much? I urge you or anyone else to show proof that the class was overperforming to warrant such nerf. This is crazy. I mentioned before, if you base your decisions on performance at lower level ini, this is not accurate as raids are mixed in terms of gear/skill, alot of ppl take it easy and dont even full buff - in my opinion only RoFL as main endgame should be used as a reference and even then gear differences should be taken into account.
The above changes should not be implemented, they are absolutely not consistent with my experience and just like Sere I am speechless and perplexed as to why you are doing it. The champ ISS helps everyone in the raid in a similar manner, so i cant even say your suggested nerf has its origin in the new ISS. Similarly, wd ISS while superior to the one we had before, does not warrant or explain why you want to nerf wd/wl to such extent.
Apologies for the long post, but all of this is disappointing and I strongly urge you to reconsider and not alienate the community, please listen to the feedback.
Proposed change:
As was pointed out before, wd/wl sustain is solid but not op and other classes do better - please dont do this change, i dont understand it, you just made sustain solid for this combo and now nerfing it to the ground, its fine as is, I am strongly against the change! Its not even funny to implement new ISS which is so hard to get and then immediately follow it by the nerf... Please reconsider combo is fine not op but does well and fun for wd lovers like me to play.
Wd/s proposed changes:
"Removed Untamable cooldown time, increased its damage by 30%, added 0.5 x STR fix damage."
With this change class will clearly have focus issues (skill cost 20 focus) since as we know focus regen when you move is very low. Thus without the experimental dwarven ale on, you can't really use the skill too long during the sustain phase. Either the focus cost should decrease alot (still wont solve the issue) or some skill should be modified to restore focus on hit - for example anti-magic arrow has now a chance to restore mana - i suggest to add restore focus too, similar to s/wl.
Regarding proposed change to wd/w:
"Increased Double Chop base damage by 30%, fix damage by 50%."
I am not sure that would be able to fix the key problem - sustain damage and trash aoe where lets face it in rofl you need the most. I think the damage of the power of the wood spirit should also be increased to something approaching wd/r (i.e. from current 434% to 753%), that would help with the sustain aoe damage while not affecting single target dps nor burst since the skill is not going to be used during the burst or single target dps. If that is not implemented or something similar (e.g. maybe making double chop aoe?) I dont think wd/w would be viable.
Regards,
Rakot
Many thanks for listening and removing the proposed nerf for wd/wl - appreciate you hear the feedback from the community.
Kind regards,
Rakot
Warden/Warlock
- Halved Corruption of Nature physical damage gain.
I don't see why this should be necessary. Warden/Warlock wasn't overperforming. Please reconsider this change.
I 100% agree, with the latest changes wd/wl was able to keep up with other dps but was in no way overpowered or even top dps - i run rofl multiple times on wd/wl largely since i enjoy playing wd and the class was solid but not op. There are many other classes stronger than wd/wl in rofl, thus I strongly suggest not to implement the proposed change. If the basis for the change is lower ini damage output, please dont use that, since that is not a good metric and i saw many classes do absurd amount of damage there + most of the time the raids for lower lev ini is a pug with highly variable gear. Again based on the rofl experience wd/wl was not overperforming at all but rather was finally an option to play wd and dont be behind everyone else. If the change is implemented, we would be back to noone playing wd/wl in rofl, i dont think it makes sense to do it. Please reconsider.
Few comments/questions/suggestion on the upcoming ISS from gold accessories:
1) how many pieces would be required? I hope just ring + earing since farming those for more than one ISS is hardily feasible (think chain for 3 haha)
2) As in 1) - for chain users, one ideally would need to have 3 ISS if one would like to play warr/wd/champ; could one extraction grant all ISS there - i.e. str accessory would give 3 ISS for warr, champ, wd, or dex accessory would give ISS for r and s, I dont know if that would be possible, but I think that would be really nice for ppl who play multiple classes since gold accessories are not like old school drop in an ini ISS - please consider
3) Some ISS are clearly SO MUCH superior to others, that makes me wish you just implement general ISS that would broadly provide phys and magical damage (or pa and ma) so all classes can use that...
4) In terms of the general ISS - take priest one for example, nice quality of life change - perhaps consider making it a general ISS and replace healer specific one for a priest if you would keep it class specific.
5) For Wd: Animal Spirit’s Embrace - does it stack or shares cd with the Assault of of the Animal Spirit (95 ISS) - it does not specify but I wonder if both can be used?
6) Secret Technique of the Ruins - since most ISS appear to be a combination of options, i wonder if aoe (800% dps x3 from the mechanic gamble) was forgotten?
We do not plan to change any point and click skill to self/target cast at the moment.
Greetings
Thank you for commenting on that - I wonder if in that case something could be done to make the placing little more consistent?
Furthermore, given then placing issue - please consider changing the mechanical storm to work similar to frantic briar so that at least not all aoe of ch/s would require the placing to work; thank you!
If I recall it works as a hit on a mob + range around the mob, so not based on where the character is - but yeah that way you can actually apply the aoe consistently
I just checked again the aoe is triggered where you stand without a target, even if I ignite the aoe in the Itnal camp in front of the maid it is placed where I stand.
Ah yes, i got it confused with another skill - Psychic Whirlwind from w/wl - that is the one that i think would work similar concept wise with the Mechanical Strorm and Imprisonment Pulse, only difference it would place aoe based on a mob + area around it - would just need to use Psychic Whirlwind placement but keep damage + range similar to current 2 aoes - that way no change in terms of dps + idea behind the skill but would work consistently.
Cheers!
The Spirit Blade Storm is the same principle with the difference that the skill triggers where the character is.
If I recall it works as a hit on a mob + range around the mob, so not based on where the character is - but yeah that way you can actually apply the aoe consistently
On the subject of Aoe's with mouseover function. I also have my problems with it, it is not always possible to use the skill properly, be it an uneven surface or possibly an invisible blade of grass. If you can't place the skill correctly, the character runs right through the Ini, which is anything but nice in my eyes. For this reason, I would suggest changing the mouseover placement at least for the Mechanical Storm so that it works like the Spirit Blade Storm from the W/WL. The Aoe would still be anchored at one point but would be much easier to handle.
I'm not sure how Sere or Rakot see it, but I've also considered whether this change might be useful for the Imprisonment Pulse. Would love to hear your opinion on this.
I have exact same problem with both the Mechanical Storm and Imprisonment Pulse - trees/grass or whatever, half of the time especially in tight spaces (RoFl has a few haha) I cant place these aoes, this is always so frustrating for me and by far the biggest negative issue i have with champs in general. I would vote 100% if the placement is replaced with the Spirit Blade Storm mechanics from the W/WL - keep all damage range etc same but use the Spirit Blade Storm to initiate/anchor the Mechanical Storm and Imprisonment Pulse. It would not change anything dps wise, but as a quality of life change would be incredible, I personally 100% in favor of that - would make champ much more enjoyable and aoe placement would be much more consistent - nothing is worst to fully buff and then spend few seconds trying to place the aoe and end up either not placing it at all or moving into a random direction and then placing it somewhere else - happens almost every time when we are in a tight corridor or have trees/grass or something - super annoying!
Kind regards,
Rakot
One idea for the ch/s:
Since ch/s has more pa than other champs due to extra gun + issue with hp dot, I wonder if it could make sense to change Forge skill to increase damage by 2% instead of pa and have max stacks to 7 (i.e. similar to ch/wl) + have some percent of hp restored on white hit, with the later helping out with bleeds.
Kind regards,
Rakot
Display MoreRegarding Ch/S:
First of all, thanks for the change, focus management works fine now. However, I agree that the cast time of Crippling Shot should be removed. Right now, I only use it with Chain Drive anyway, so it would just be a neat quality of life change.
Moreover, I fully support Rakot's suggestion to reduce the amount of life consumed by Blood Arrow. I'd even go further and say the hp cost of Shadowforge's Rage should be reduced to 1%, because Ch/Wl has other skills that consume life.
Being hit by melee aoes and getting drained by such large amounts may be manageable (yet annoying) for players like Rakot and me, who already finished gold gear and have considerable amounts of hp & pdef, but will break any new players back.
Regarding Ch/Wl:
Damage seems fine now, however it's very annoying to sacrifice a gcd every 20 seconds to use Indomitable Spirit. We already have to use Rune Growth (which has a gcd as well) every 30 seconds. Please consider removing at least one of those gcds.
Thank you Sere, agree on all as well. I agree one can make crippling shot work via the chain drive, but that removes the logic of skill being ranged, which is why I think cast should be removed or should be made non-interruptable if you move, ch/s cant do good dps range, must be close so not moving is not an option
I also think few skills that are just used to enable something should be non-gcd:
perhaps consider removing gcd from the Rune Growth/Indomitable Spirit/Kinetic Explosion
Could you also comment on the ch/s damage output please? I was comparing with s/wl, which atm seems to be a benchmark top dps at least in our raids; ch/s was behind s/wl on all of sustain/trash/aoe/burst + bleeding like crazy haha thats why i suggested some increases on the ch/s aoe to help abit.
Another thing, was mentioned before, dura loss on the gun is way too high - one rofl run and i lost half of the total gun dura - it should be decreased several times for sure
Thank you!
Few comments on ch/s:
1) The focus issue is largely solved, some management is required so its not care free, but overall it works reasonably well now, thank you!
2) Crippling shot - 0.5 s cast but if you move it gets cancelled, since champ needs to be close combat I suggest you either make this skill instant (no real reason for it to be 0.5 s cast tbh) or change it so if you move the cast is not interrupted, otherwise it is very annoying sometimes as i close down and it keeps trying to cast it
3) Pulsing shot - main aoe, but has 10s cd + only limited to 1+4 targets - I suggest to decrease cd to 8 s + increase number of targets to 1+ 5 - so total is 6.
4) some option to replenish hp would be really nice - especially when you get 5% hp BA dot and 3% hp shadowforge's rage dot - perhaps consider adding to either fearless shot or crippling shot to restore some hp on hit;
5) I mentioned before BA + shadowforge's rage dot is 8% combined, which is alot - please perhaps consider making BA 3% (or have a skill option that we can use that replenishes some hp during the shadowforge)
6) Mechanical storm - the placing is same as Imprisonment Pulse and with trees and all it often fails; as a quality of life change and given both aoes require same placing mechanics please consider just changing the Mechanical Storm to do same aoe dps with same range but around the user, for example similar to wd frantic briar
In terms of the performance still need to test more - after one run it looked like burst is not great, sustain and aoe were ok but not great, perhaps fixing some of the issues/suggestions above would help to improve it; at the moment not entirely sure where the combo excels.
Thank you.
latest changes on wd/wl:
I did 3 runs on wd/wl and with the changes sustained is improved although burst got down, but overall i think class is now solid and can keep up with others more or less, so thank you! The change of Power of the Wood Spirit - i initially thought its not that important, but it is actually awesome quality of life change, very nice!
Now to fix wd/w
Warden/Warlock
- Decreased Corruption of Nature cooldown time to 3 minutes, reduced physical damage gain to 24%.
It was planned to strengthen the class, with this change, its damage only decreased.
Yes that buffed sustained some (from 24% to 30% so 6% increase) but decreased burst quite a bit (from 35% to 24% so 11% loss, perhaps consider changing the corruption damage buff to 28% (from 35% it was before but increase from the proposed 24%). That would keep burst slightly lower than before, and will help the sustain.
Additional comment re wd oak walker - I wonder given that for example psychic shadow increases pcrit by 1200 and pcrit damage by 20%, while oak walker gets only 200 pcrit and 10% pcrit damage, a buff of the oak walker to get it similar to the other pet would make sense for wd combos other than wd/wl? Note that oak walker has ISS (Chaos of greed) that enables 6% damage increase, so I think keeping the pcrit damage of 10% is fine but perhaps consider increasing pcrit to 1200 instead of 200?
Cheers!
Sounds good, however I'd suggest making Chaos of Greed work with every warden pet, since it's an iss.
Talking about iss, Iron Focus (ToS is) should be changed, since it's pointless atm. I'd say change it to increase physical critrate by 1k instead of accuracy.
i am fine with that but iIn that case change pcrit damage of the oak walker to 20% and match pcrit to 1200 if that ISS would work for all pets, that would make sense
