Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

Quote from Serenadae

"The Knight currently has no aggro problems."

Indeed. That's why K/Ch will be fine, even with 6 sec cd on Shock Strike.

"The entire point is that aggro should not be changed otherwise there will be issues."

Not a single Knight combination has to rely on secondary-class specific skills to build and hold aggro. The default Knight skills are more than enough.

The Shock strike will still be on a 3 second cooldown, if the general changes are consistant. The problem is that one must use their aggro skills to keep the aggro. Electrocution chain is a GCD that does not generate extra aggro. In that time you must catch up to the other players aggro. Consistency is key in farming in end-game scenarios. And if aggro is such a non-issue, why should one nerf it? The entire point makes absolutely no sense. It comes across as a knee-jerk reaction over points that aren't even sensible.

Quote

Champion

• Reduced Shock Strike cooldown to 3 seconds from 6 seconds, reduced aggro modifier with Shield Form to 500% from 1000%, same target won’t get stunned again after 3 seconds of first stun, but still will be interrupted.

Knight/Champion

• Changed Mighty Strike to do not reduce cooldown of Shock Strike anymore.

Quote from xLutinex

Quote from MidanLauert

Because the K/Ch is balanced around it's Electrocution Chain, a skill that provides no aggro multi. You are not able to hold aggro after pulling without an AoE. Whirlwind shield is not enough for aggro if you have high area damage classes. That is the entire issue.
Taking down those multis makes the CC borderline useless. Come on. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

Tell me? How can tanks like K/M, K/P, K/S and K/D can hold aggro in such situations only with their whirlwind shield?

It's not a hard concept to grasp.

'cause Electrocution chain doesn't generate extra aggro. One quick AoE from a strong warden and he's got aggro during the gcd. If the whirlwind shield isn't enough that DD is dead. This scenario happens more than you think. Consistency is key to farming endgame instances. This change would make the K/Ch to be less consistent.

The other classes do not use a non-aggro skill for crowd control at the start of most packs.

Quote from MidanLauert

Quote from Serenadae

"The Knight currently has no aggro problems."

Indeed. That's why K/Ch will be fine, even with 6 sec cd on Shock Strike.

"The entire point is that aggro should not be changed otherwise there will be issues."

Not a single Knight combination has to rely on secondary-class specific skills to build and hold aggro. The default Knight skills are more than enough.

The Shock strike will still be on a 3 second cooldown, if the general changes are consistant. The problem is that one must use their aggro skills to keep the aggro. Electrocution chain is a GCD that does not generate extra aggro. In that time you must catch up to the other players aggro. Consistency is key in farming in end-game scenarios. And if aggro is such a non-issue, why should one nerf it? The entire point makes absolutely no sense. It comes across as a knee-jerk reaction over points that aren't even sensible.

Quote

Champion

• Reduced Shock Strike cooldown to 3 seconds from 6 seconds, reduced aggro modifier with Shield Form to 500% from 1000%, same target won’t get stunned again after 3 seconds of first stun, but still will be interrupted.

Knight/Champion

• Changed Mighty Strike to do not reduce cooldown of Shock Strike anymore.

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Because nobody wanted to report tanks. Because in 99% player are reporting to OP dps

Quote from xLutinex

Quote from MidanLauert

The Shock strike will still be on a 3 second cooldown, if the general changes are consistant. The problem is that one must use their aggro skills to keep the aggro. Electrocution chain is a GCD that does not generate extra aggro. In that time you must catch up to the other players aggro. Consistency is key in farming in end-game scenarios. And if aggro is such a non-issue, why should one nerf it? The entire point makes absolutely no sense. It comes across as a knee-jerk reaction over points that aren't even sensible.

Because nobody wanted to report tanks. Because in 99% player are reporting to OP dps

If you think the class is broken, play it, gather definitive data, present it. Baseless accusations like "muh x is op" lead nowhere.

Regarding Knight/Champ:

Electrocution Chain is a bit to strong. Resetting several seconds of cooldown within the next 10 seconds result in perma stunning within big pulls. Today I could use it 3 times within 1 big trashpull after b2 and within the big pull after b3.

I would suggest to remove the CD reset function of this skill.

Second is the every 3 second shock strike with massive aggro. I played with sword, not best weapon for this class, and the aggro generated with shock strike was more than with every other class. But the upcoming patch should balance it in my opinion

Btw: Thank you @dev team for all the good job in balancing process

Hmmm...

• Limited exchanges for Ancient Memento to Diamonds to 1 exchange per day.

Why? That is first step to global? Maybe remove npc?

Rogue/Druid

• Reduced Poison Shroud poison damage to 4361 from 5452.
• Increased Earth Pulse damage decrement for each extra target to 24% from 20%.

R/w have stronger single target dmg and stronger aoe than r/d, r/w will get nerf on aoe, r/d will get nerf on sigle+aoe (dota) and nerf on aoe? So r/w still will be stronger on single and aoe than r/d. I'm wrong?

Fixed Chain of Life damage transfer was triggering combat and damage transfer was avoidable via immune effects.

Would you please allow the use of instruments while taking dmg by the Chain? Changing the taken dmg to the type of Blood Arrow and Holy Candle should solve this issue. As it is now, not being able to play instruments during fights is an unnecessary drawback to this skill.

Cheers!

Well I wasnt able to test thoroughly yet, but I played tambourine once while my target got hit by Balton and the cast didnt go through...I will check again once the server is up

Thanks anyway for making this possible!

Edit: Works flawless - thanks again!

Hello...As ive noticed when u use Combat Master while u got buf on for second time to rebuf the buff u lose effect of dmg buf. As Rogue/Scout

Cao Elipso

I had the opportunity to test Warlock as mdps over the last two days and wanted to give my feedback, especially regarding a MAJOR (at least in my opinion) problem in the current balancing progress.

We did a rofl run with two dps yesterday, Warlock/Warrior & Mage/Warrior and overall we had a smooth run, so both classes are actually quite good and able to handle all content. After these first hand experiences I can confirm what was already said by Madoxx and Burningflame, Warlock is pretty good in longer fights and seems to be in overall dps better than Mage (although seems slightly behind on bosses, at least compared to M/W - pre patch).

Today I did rofl with several pdps involved (S/W, S/R & R/Wl), again as Warlock/Warrior. I stood no chance because 1. Everything died way to fast (casts vs instants) and 2. Because only pdps siege titles and Lute were used.

So PLEASE, as already suggested, remove shared cd from Lute & Guitar and merge Regal Cry and Storm Assault into ONE skill. Because right now, you can't compare mdps to pdps because there is no equal testing environment atm. This, in my humble opinion, is currently the major problem in the whole balancing process and I can't see balancing coming to an succesful end without solving it.

Regarding warlock in general: Loosing your Psi after combat ends (especially with the latest changes to it), is very, very unpleasant. Please remove PSI deterioration out of combat. If this proves to be too much, the dark damage passive always can be cropped afterwards. Right now, the core mechanic of Warlock just doesn't work smoothly.

Quote from Serenadae

I had the opportunity to test Warlock as mdps over the last to day and wanted to give my feedback, especially regarding a MAJOR (at least in my opinion) problem in the current balancing progress.

We did a rofl run with two dps yesterday, Warlock/Warrior & Mage/Warrior and overall we had a smooth run, so both classes are actually quite good and able to handle all content. After these first hand experiences I can confirm what was already said by Madoxx and Burningflame, Warlock is pretty good in longer fights and seems to be in overall dps better than Mage (although seems slightly behind on bosses, at least compared to M/W - pre patch).

Today I did rofl with several pdps involved (S/W, S/R & R/Wl), again as Warlock/Warrior. I stood no chance because 1. Everything died way to fast (casts vs instants) and 2. Because only pdps siege titles and Lute were used.

So PLEASE, as already suggested, remove shared cd from Lute & Guitar and merge Regal Cry and Storm Assault into ONE skill. Because right now, you can't compare mdps to pdps because there is no equal testing environment atm. This, in my humble opinion, is currently the major problem in the whole balancing process and I can't see balancing coming to an succesful end without solving it.

Regarding warlock in general: Loosing your Psi after combat ends (especially with the latest changes to it), is very, very unpleasant. Please remove PSI deterioration out of combat. If this proves to be too much, the dark damage passive always can be cropped afterwards. Right now, the core mechanic of Warlock just doesn't work smoothly.

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Yes, that is a big problem. In a mdps party, mage have no chance (I don't use m/w, I would cry if we had pdps party, would be even worse xD). I could keep up as m/s as I said the other day but since latest supports change (my pet isn't op anymore) and m/s nerf, I can't. Almost in every situation warlock perform better in our runs. Some mage subclases can compete in X things but warlock end up destroying them in overall. Wl/ch, wl/r and wl/w, the 3 beat my mages xD. Wl/m have insane sustain with lower dps party.

Also want to report a bug on d/wl. We can't use ancient water and body vitalization together anymore. Please fix this, skill was modified into a normal selfbuff for a reason, it returned to previous state before balance.

I went back to use mch yesterday because dwl was bugged. It was terrible. Idk if rest of classes are super overpowered or class got so many nerfs that became useless but I got humilliated by a wd/d and a warlock in every possible way.

Count me in about mdps/pdps titles, even guitar and lute should be the same. Distance dps have way easier way to play music than melees.

Hi,

regarding Knight/CHamp:

I found out why the aggro is so insane.

Blessed Hammer passive with 45% hammer damage is a bit buggy.

See tooltip in skillbook and when you post the skill ->

For example here are Knight/CH without EQ

With sword:

And here with hammer:

The hammer damage is increasing by more than 80% instead of only 45%.

Guess it is a bug and should be 45%? The skill is +104 if I post it and in skill book it is capped at 55.

Can a dev clarify it if the tooltip in skillbook is wrong or the damage increase?

Kind regards

*Edit* edited the +104 and +55 difference

Quote from xLutinex

Guess it is a bug and should be 45%? The skill is +104 if I post it and in skill book it is capped at 55.

Oh my, if that is true that bug is insane (and frankly funny) +1 for awareness

Heyho,

First of all thanks for the nice changes for the mage/warrior^^

Very nice change of the wisdom and bravery buff - cant say too much about the 30% already but 5 mins ->

Also the change of Thunderstorm will make it viable for nearly every mage class.

(and for the fast fix of wisdom and bravery)

In addition to Sere's post:

Compared to a mage/warrior the wl/r can do the same damage.

But in the point of view from the mage/warrior i can understand the comparison to the pdps.

You dont have a chance sometimes as a caster to even hit the mobs or have to use instants.

But i think wl will overall perform better especially in terms of burst dps if you take a m/wl with you.

As a mage your base damage compared to other classes is WAY lower than maybe rogues, scouts etc thats why the burst damage is way lower compared to some pdps.

Thats the reason why i suggested pushes for the mage/warrior especially.

I know i often say much about this class but that's because it's my favorite mage class combo^^

Of course there are some title boosts etc in pdps groups but if you would use storm assault for a mage/warrior it wouldn't change anything because the matk is high but the base damage is low.

Even with the bugged skill i wouldn't have reached place 1 in dmg :p

The cast speed doesn't affect the mage/warrior too because you easily get to 0,5s cast.

Rogue, champ, scout, wl combos can hit with 50kk to maybe 110kk in burst to rofl bosses with single skills. Mage/warrior can maybe reach the 30kk in fullburst (with a low eruption chance).

The buff of flame was quite nice but its like 8% damage. In rofl thats 8% to the 19-23kk i deal normally to bosses with a flame so 1,5-1,85kk. So not that much i would say^^

Maybe increasing flame damage even more or adding an int multi would be an idea like i said in one of my previous posts.

I also tested the other mage classes in terms of base damage on their spammable cast skill (ofc not really 100% relatable etc because of matk etc.) but most mage classes get more profit of matk anyway.

Thats something for another post but summarized the mage/warrior is 2nd last place by far compared to other mage classes (last place is mage/champ - maybe thats why no one plays him or the mage/warrior since you need a Buffgear^^)

Maybe increasing Flame more or/and adding an int multi like i suggested in one of my last posts would be an option.

But i don't know where this class has to stand in the eyes of the devs thats why i just say take him to the other "better" classes^^ Or maybe it's just get the other classes to him(?)

I just want this class to be as nice as others.

Greetings

• Changed Storm Assault to provide 15% physical attack power and 15% attack speed.
  
  Does it mean that mdd lost their own matt + spdcast siege skill buff?

Quote from deszcz2

• Changed Storm Assault to provide 15% physical attack power and 15% attack speed.
  
  Does it mean that mdd lost their own matt + spdcast siege skill buff?

Storm assault right now provides cast speed+ magical attack while Regal cry provides attack speed + physical attack. After this change both (matck and patck) will be removed but one skill will give both buffs (attack and cast speed)

My opinion: THANK YOU! This, hopefully, will make it a lot more pleasent to play mdps in a pdps supported group and vise virsa.

Greetings.

Quote from Laisha

Quote from deszcz2

• Changed Storm Assault to provide 15% physical attack power and 15% attack speed.
  
  Does it mean that mdd lost their own matt + spdcast siege skill buff?

Storm assault right now provides cast speed+ magical attack while Regal cry provides attack speed + physical attack. After this change both (matck and patck) will be removed but one skill will give both buffs (attack and cast speed)

My opinion: THANK YOU! This, hopefully, will make it a lot more pleasent to play mdps in a pdps supported group and vise virsa.

Greetings.

Well if so then please change this description becouse it misses word "also" or something like that, and can be missleading.

There is no word about what you said. It is only patt and attkspd. So nothing about matt and speedcast, thats why i asked.

I also hope that they are merged.

Quote from deszcz2

Quote from Laisha

Storm assault right now provides cast speed+ magical attack while Regal cry provides attack speed + physical attack. After this change both (matck and patck) will be removed but one skill will give both buffs (attack and cast speed)

My opinion: THANK YOU! This, hopefully, will make it a lot more pleasent to play mdps in a pdps supported group and vise virsa.

Greetings.

Well if so then please change this description becouse it misses word "also" or something like that, and can be missleading.

There is no word about what you said. It is only patt and attkspd. So nothing about matt and speedcast, thats why i asked.

I also hope that they are merged.

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You are right. I somehow read cast speed there (I guess I was too excited fo this). my bad

Maybe a DEV can clarify if thats a mistake or intended, because if it is intended please change it to provide BOTH buffs.

Quote from deszcz2

Quote from Laisha

Storm assault right now provides cast speed+ magical attack while Regal cry provides attack speed + physical attack. After this change both (matck and patck) will be removed but one skill will give both buffs (attack and cast speed)

My opinion: THANK YOU! This, hopefully, will make it a lot more pleasent to play mdps in a pdps supported group and vise virsa.

Greetings.

Well if so then please change this description becouse it misses word "also" or something like that, and can be missleading.

There is no word about what you said. It is only patt and attkspd. So nothing about matt and speedcast, thats why i asked.

I also hope that they are merged.

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Quote from Laisha

Quote from deszcz2

Well if so then please change this description becouse it misses word "also" or something like that, and can be missleading.

There is no word about what you said. It is only patt and attkspd. So nothing about matt and speedcast, thats why i asked.

I also hope that they are merged.

You are right. I somehow read cast speed there (I guess I was too excited fo this). my bad

Maybe a DEV can clarify if thats a mistake or intended, because if it is intended please change it to provide BOTH buffs.

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Changed Storm Assault to provide 15% physical attack power and 15% attack speed additionally.*

Thanks for the clarification.

Greetings.

Heyho,

I saw in the planned patchnotes that thunderstorm on the mage/warrior will get a decrement.

"Fixed Thunderstorm had no damage decrement as much as regular Mage skills does."

Now i wanted to ask - why especially on him?

EVERY mage class doesn't have a decrement on thunderstorm at the moment. And some classes can use it very good^^

Just wondering why adding on this class because there is no decrement on any mage class combination.

So that is the same as for all other mages.

It will nerf mage aoe more for some classes - i know mage/warrior itself has much more potential but i just wanted to mention that there is no difference between these classes on this skill.^^

And it helps the class to compete overall with other classes.

Greetings

Hey,

in my observation, r/k is really bad dps in this moment and he is crap tank.

About dps i will be silent because r/k should be tank in my opinion. I have ultimate t13 gear (4-2 dex-str), i cant tank rofl and inferno. I have jewellery set, raksha dagger and wings with stats:

Sta/sta rofl, gorge, inferno and Sta/dex rofl, gorge, inferno.

With this and with reduction from p/d i can tank inferno. Rofl with sigils is impossible, maybe if i will have full dex/dex gear or sta/sta + sta/dex i will can this but that will be crap gear only for r/k. For example champion can tank in full dps gear. Rogue dps gear is 4-2 or 3-3. R/k have small amount of deff, zero dodge, zero evaporation, have only one reduction (35% duration: 10 sec cd: 2 min). Additionally he is only combination with knight which cant use shield of discipline (s/k cant use too).

My propositions about r/k:

1) let him do dmg without tank trasformation

2) let him use weaker form shields of discipline without shield or let him use shield

3) increase duration of Holy Light Protection or reduce CD

4) maybe sth like on k/r - healing from dodges (but he dont have dodges )

5) Permanent reduction dmg - 20%

I dont need all changes, that are only my propositions about what we can do to upgrade r/k gameplay and utility. That is only my experience.

Best regards and invite to the discussion

Quote from Merkur

Hey,

in my observation, r/k is really bad dps in this moment and he is crap tank.

About dps i will be silent because r/k should be tank in my opinion. I have ultimate t13 gear (4-2 dex-str), i cant tank rofl and inferno. I have jewellery set, raksha dagger and wings with stats:

Sta/sta rofl, gorge, inferno and Sta/dex rofl, gorge, inferno.

With this and with reduction from p/d i can tank inferno. Rofl with sigils is impossible, maybe if i will have full dex/dex gear or sta/sta + sta/dex i will can this but that will be crap gear only for r/k. For example champion can tank in full dps gear. Rogue dps gear is 4-2 or 3-3. R/k have small amount of deff, zero dodge, zero evaporation, have only one reduction (35% duration: 10 sec cd: 2 min). Additionally he is only combination with knight which cant use shield of discipline (s/k cant use too).

My propositions about r/k:

1) let him do dmg without tank trasformation

2) let him use weaker form shields of discipline without shield or let him use shield

3) increase duration of Holy Light Protection or reduce CD

4) maybe sth like on k/r - healing from dodges (but he dont have dodges )

5) Permanent reduction dmg - 20%

I dont need all changes, that are only my propositions about what we can do to upgrade r/k gameplay and utility. That is only my experience.

Best regards and invite to the discussion

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Personally I am totally against skills mixing roles with just 1 gear. That's why I also don't want r/k to have full tank ability with full dps gear.

R/k is an offtank in my eyes who can definitly tank a boss for a short time without problems

Sadly I cannot say something about dps. Need to test it soon.

I want to mention that full knight tanks cannot switch to dps with 1 skill;) so please let the tank role at classes with full tank equip

Kind regards

Quote from xLutinex

Quote from Merkur

Hey,

in my observation, r/k is really bad dps in this moment and he is crap tank.

About dps i will be silent because r/k should be tank in my opinion. I have ultimate t13 gear (4-2 dex-str), i cant tank rofl and inferno. I have jewellery set, raksha dagger and wings with stats:

Sta/sta rofl, gorge, inferno and Sta/dex rofl, gorge, inferno.

With this and with reduction from p/d i can tank inferno. Rofl with sigils is impossible, maybe if i will have full dex/dex gear or sta/sta + sta/dex i will can this but that will be crap gear only for r/k. For example champion can tank in full dps gear. Rogue dps gear is 4-2 or 3-3. R/k have small amount of deff, zero dodge, zero evaporation, have only one reduction (35% duration: 10 sec cd: 2 min). Additionally he is only combination with knight which cant use shield of discipline (s/k cant use too).

My propositions about r/k:

1) let him do dmg without tank trasformation

2) let him use weaker form shields of discipline without shield or let him use shield

3) increase duration of Holy Light Protection or reduce CD

4) maybe sth like on k/r - healing from dodges (but he dont have dodges )

5) Permanent reduction dmg - 20%

I dont need all changes, that are only my propositions about what we can do to upgrade r/k gameplay and utility. That is only my experience.

Best regards and invite to the discussion

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Personally I am totally against skills mixing roles with just 1 gear. That's why I also don't want r/k to have full tank ability with full dps gear.

R/k is an offtank in my eyes who can definitly tank a boss for a short time without problems

Sadly I cannot say something about dps. Need to test it soon.

I want to mention that full knight tanks cannot switch to dps with 1 skill;) so please let the tank role at classes with full tank equip

Kind regards

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"I want to mention that full knight tanks cannot switch to dps with 1 skill;)"

Yea, but champion can

I agree with you about mixing roles, but if champion can be better tank than knight in dps gear, can heal in dps gear. So why r/k cant tank? Champion dont must create new gear (for example 3x sta/sta + 3x str/str) so why r/k must create new gear. But okey, what if i will have new gear only for r/k? Class will be weaker tank than champion and knight. Still less amount of deff, zero dodges, zero evaporation, cant use shield of discipline. I want see on tank only knight, but if champion can tank in dps gear, let r/k tank in dps gear or forbid this on champion too.

Idea with offtank is not nice for me because we dont need offtank anywhere in this moment. So if we are against mixing roles lets change r/k in only dps, that will be nice too. About mixing gear, in my gear on k/r and on r/k (full tank tranformation) i can do the same dps

In my opinion in this moment tank skills on r/k are totally crap with zero utility, so we should improve this skills or remove and upgrade dps possibilities. I dont know anybody who want play on r/k, propably because he is the weakest dps (about rogues) and the weakest tank, r/p is better

Kind regards

Quote from Merkur

Quote from xLutinex

Personally I am totally against skills mixing roles with just 1 gear. That's why I also don't want r/k to have full tank ability with full dps gear.

R/k is an offtank in my eyes who can definitly tank a boss for a short time without problems

Sadly I cannot say something about dps. Need to test it soon.

I want to mention that full knight tanks cannot switch to dps with 1 skill;) so please let the tank role at classes with full tank equip

Kind regards

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"I want to mention that full knight tanks cannot switch to dps with 1 skill;)"

Yea, but champion can

I agree with you about mixing roles, but if champion can be better tank than knight in dps gear, can heal in dps gear. So why r/k cant tank? Champion dont must create new gear (for example 3x sta/sta + 3x str/str) so why r/k must create new gear. But okey, what if i will have new gear only for r/k? Class will be weaker tank than champion and knight. Still less amount of deff, zero dodges, zero evaporation, cant use shield of discipline. I want see on tank only knight, but if champion can tank in dps gear, let r/k tank in dps gear or forbid this on champion too.

Idea with offtank is not nice for me because we dont need offtank anywhere in this moment. So if we are against mixing roles lets change r/k in only dps, that will be nice too. About mixing gear, in my gear on k/r and on r/k (full tank tranformation) i can do the same dps

In my opinion in this moment tank skills on r/k are totally crap with zero utility, so we should improve this skills or remove and upgrade dps possibilities. I dont know anybody who want play on r/k, propably because he is the weakest dps (about rogues) and the weakest tank, r/p is better

Kind regards

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The Champ is a separate topic. But you should ask your own: what shall all main knight tanks do,if every class can tank. Why doing plate Gear?