Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

    Quote from xLutinex

    I think r/m is the strongest rogue overall.

    i disagree with this entirely. r/ch is currently most broken rogue in overall, and i can easily say r/w, r/ch, r/s can outdps a r/m in equal conditions


    even the class which alot people were complained about when its nerfed, r/p, has higher base damage compared to r/m which results in higher sustain, and they both have same patk if you pay extra diamonds to r/m for statted high tier offhand, otherwise its even lower than r/p.

    Quote from xLutinex

    But you are able to buy projectiles.

    classes with high mana consumption need to use mana potion every 20 seconds

    didn't know there is a support class thats giving projectiles like mp

    Quote from xLutinex

    there are a lot of other classes which have an exclusive weapon only for their combination :/

    exclusive weapon and extra weapon are different things.


    2h hammer for r/ch is exclusive weapon, 2x 1h axe for w/r is extra weapon, w/r is an expensive class.


    r/ch have insane sustain and burst, w/r has insane aoe burst, r/w has insane aoe burst and insane capability to do challenge runs without supports or some bad supports. while r/m has nothing special, there is no reason to make a 2nd dagger for this class in this state. playing r/m is rather like tiring than funny and enjoyable.

    the world chico, and everything in it.

    Like 3

    proof it that you can outdps r/m with r/w, r/s or r/ch overall. I compared my r/wrd today with your r/m. I tested r/m today again. I outdps MY r/ch, r/w and r/s overall with r/wrd. only r/ch can burst higher, if there is a lot of attack speed buffs in group. Furthermore I can say that r/m do the same or even more damage than r/wrd. You don't need a high tiered offhand. I have only t12.

    I don't know if you play with different ancillary titles. You need an other title if you are not on attack speed cap.


    And btw 2h hammer for r/ch is an extra weapon, if you want to play any other rogue. I doubt that someone plays 1 class combi forever. 2x 1h axe for w/r are 2 extra weapons in my opinion.


    That are my 2 cents.

    apparently everything is working different for us. for me r/wd is worst rogue in overall due to lacking sustain unless there are enough dps to reduce its lack during idling time by compensating rest of sustain until next burst of r/wd. like 2 sustain class which is sharing sustain until next burst of r/wd etc. (i didn't play r/wd after last 20% aoe buff.)


    i don't know how do you want me to prove such thing, i can't duplicate my self to compare things in real time. r/ch basically have higher sustain for me compared to ANY rogue. and compared to same players, im always doing more damage as r/ch.


    my r/ch run with 3 similar dps (with similar damage in overall) took 45-50 mins to finish. could you remind me how long it was, todays run, with total of 4~ equal damage source?, because i can't remember. (4 by merging low damage sources)


    ok lets try:

    don't forget that these are random parties, not a guild run where everyone is getting support from several sources. prepared runs can be designed by however party community wants, but you are usually alone in random parties where you can discover real potential of a class/yourself. for example you can see how many times you die with a bad tank and can say chain classes are better than leather in such a run due to survivability. everything works different in different scenarios.


    anyway, my overall damage per second of r/ch is minimum 4.1kk as you can see and goes up to 4.9kk. this makes it 4.5kk average on 3 samples. this of course depends on even tank, but im talking about average values of this statistic.


    - this is the run where took 50 mins, 6.5kkk damage in a 50 min "random" run without entering organs, i don't think r/m can do such damage in a random party, but lets not talk about certain runs and go into average.


    meanwhile my r/m is between 3.78 - 4.15kk, which is 3.9kk in average, 15% lower than r/ch.

    both classes have common supports in the runs, in older screenshots where i had no support except an average wlm, this overall dps of r/m drops to even around 3-3.2kk but sadly my Statisticsfree ad space addon wasn't existing yet, means is hard to find older screenshots, must check one by one, so i won't bother.


    15% difference is big enough to couldn't be margin of error.


    thats all i can show you unfortunately, i don't have special powers to analyze everything deeper than this.

    the world chico, and everything in it.

    Edited once, last by espar91 ().

    Like 2

    About Rogue/mage


    I would recommend to change the elite skill which modifies Premeditation, that it cannot be used in combat. Would make the class maybe more attractive, because right now you cannot use Premeditation very often, while with other rogues you can have it up most of the time in trash.

    The elite skill could be changed that Premeditation lasts 5 seconds longer maybe


    Greetings



    Edit: Btw for all Rogue/mage users. You don't need to buy projectiles for arcadia coins, because you make the same damage with lvl 1 projectiles. So you can buy from any vendor as many as you wish :)

    I see new meta again

    Changed Secret Technique of the Ruins set skill to provide effect only to caster, reduced cooldown to 3 minutes from 4


    Champ/Scout was very very strong before. With this change, even more.

    Quote

    but you are usually alone in random parties where you can discover real potential of a class/yourself.

    Pls what? Pls whaaaaaaaaaaaaat? I can't discover the potential of my class or of myself, when the s/pr, the ch/dr, the wr/pr or every other supp do the suppskills, when its not needed. Like u r on Jerath going in and all supp buffs come out when u down (or a other player) and can't get the buffs.
    Your statement here is a very bad joke.

    In a random run, you can compare absolutely nothing. Neither the strength of a class nor the skills of a player. There are far too many random factors (different gear, you play with or without LUA, you get support or not, etc.).

    Unfortunately, however, is balanced on such a crap, as it is written here.
    ~ Just my opinion.

    Regarding Knight/Warlock:

    Thank you, I'm thrilled to see how this impacts the class.


    Regarding Champion iss changes:

    In my opinion a good decision, since Champion out of all the dps classes didn't get a selfish lvl 104 iss. Moreover, as Revenant pointed out, it eliminates the varied impact the old version had on different classes.

    If balancing issues regarding a specific secondary class should arise, they always can be adressed in the aftermath.

    Regarding Scout/rogue


    It is not fair that sapping arrows reduce physical defense. Remove this effect

    Furthermore change Exploiting Shot, that it will increase damage of caster instead of debuff for only pdps on target. This way the balance will be improved, because pdps does not benefit anymore from scout/rogue


    Scout/priest

    Spiritual Leader should not increase attack speed of group anymore. Only for caster


    Greetings

    Personally, I am against this change! I see that is a great buff for Champion (because of CD) and 'nerf' for the others.

    I don't think 3min cd instead of 4 will have a large impact on the overall performance of Champion dps. Keep in mind it's only a 15 seconds buff. As I've already written, if I should be wrong, an overperforming secondary class can always be adjusted.

    Speaking of "nerf", I don't think classes that are already overcapped in burst or mdps that don't profit from cast speed see it that way. When R/Wd's buff was changed to a selfbuff no one batted an eye either.

    I understand that you are upset since you got the iss for the sole purpose of supporting and I would be too, but high value investments were and still are a risk in the balancing process.

    Quote from xLutinex

    I see new meta again

    Yea, me too. I'm not that much active these days anymore, but just looking at the patchnotes, I predict that the current mage meta shifts to a "mage & champ" one now. The Sage rework seems to ignore the crit resistance of your targets in burst now and another 15% dmg are huge. But we will see how it is ingame. Also I don't understand (guess I never will) why ppl want group buffs to be changed to selfish buffs in a game that i entirely focused on cooperative gameplay, but whatever. The Champ ISS was always a reason for setting up a raid differently (at least for us) and even for single players that was a reason to use a specific badge title I suppose (but am not sure).


    Regarding M/Wl...

    I had a very different opinion of the class (against almost everyone who posted here over the last week), bcz if you don't stack your fire damage, you don't loose that much time to set up your max damage, so that you are actually able to compete with other classes. MWl wasn't the best dps for sure, but it was a maijor support class that was played on 2 different ways:


    1) Only spam FBM debuff on any mob and additionally deal some decent damage on bosses

    2) Use FBM only on specific mobs or bosses and rely on your dps, which was pretty fine imo.


    I'm not sure if the new "Will of Pride" does trigger a gcd, but seems not necessary but a big improvement of the class' dps.


    I don't see, what the Devs wanna do here. We have 5 different roles these days: Tanks, Heals, Full-Supports, Supp-Dps, Dps. Full-Supps are for example S/P, W/P, CH/D, Wl/M. These are meant to be full supportive and can be played as full support classes. That means you can support the raid by using a necessary skill at least every second on a gcd.


    DPS-Supps are for example M/Wl, D/R, P/S and for sure even more (I have no idea what pdps classes can do here, maybe D/W or P/W, bcz of the battlerez and such). They have a good dps potential but their support for the raid is just decent or makes playing them viable. Even if they don't deal that much dps (like full dps classes do), the supportive potential is enough to make them worth it. Turning them into classes that can actually deal decent damage as well, is a fail in my eyes.


    Conclusion: Complaining that classes, which have great support potential, deal bad dps, should not be a reason for improving their dps to a level that enables them to compete with full dps classes. Otherwise I never see an ending of the balancing process coming. Better classify/group dps classes by their different potentials and usages. At least I don't wanna have another 10 M/R's out there, that deal about the best damage and got a decent support as well.


    Also, speaking about ending of balancing... with the "new" card system, the different raid setups (that was alrdy a thing from the beginning but whatever), the randomness of the "endgame" and the very good performance of rofl, I think, it's not possible to compare any of you guys' scrutis or experiences at all. Any time anyone is posting me a scruti of a run that does NOT contain any list of players, classes, support potential, pullstyle of the tank, etc, that is just useless in my opinion. Also the complains without posting anything is useless, bcz all of us have different playstyles, guild internal raid setups, etc. We need a non-random possibility to compare our classes as much as possible on a non-useless way.


    We need a testing environment, that behaves always the same way. That could be one specific dummy (Balton?) with full support debuffs for single target and multiple of these for AoE. Currently there is only 1 low level dummy (not even a boss) available that is not placed between others, which makes effective single target dps testing impossible. Also the "AoE dummy section" isn't representative bcz any class would deal max damage on them (not sure if they are even lv 104+). The testing environment dummys need real endgame resistances, levels and values. In my personal rota I also got some checks for UnitSex which tells if a target is a boss or something else.


    Before having such a testing environment I keep laughing about the entire process and all those very different opinions, which result into the fact that patches/balancing adaptions make specific raid setups quite OP.


    Just my opinion.

    Quote from Zyrex

    DPS-Supps are for example M/Wl, D/R, P/S and for sure even more (I have no idea what pdps classes can do here, maybe D/W or P/W, bcz of the battlerez and such). They have a good dps potential but their support for the raid is just decent or makes playing them viable. Even if they don't deal that much dps (like full dps classes do), the supportive potential is enough to make them worth it. Turning them into classes that can actually deal decent damage as well, is a fail in my eyes.

    I disagree 100%. Healer classes used as dps are not supports. Your support potential is 0. Real healers will res people. You can, but that is not a support if others do the same thing. Warlocks res in combat, they give attack to the group (that is a support skill) and I didnt see anyone saying they should do half dmg of a real dps because they are sups. D/W (damn is broken op) and P/W always did the same dmg as any other dps while D/R (after crap CPS change) and P/S are a joke. Please stop saying they are sups because Byte might even believe it. They are dps and should deal exact same dmg as any other dps.

    Quote from Cosmo
    Quote

    but you are usually alone in random parties where you can discover real potential of a class/yourself.

    Pls what? Pls whaaaaaaaaaaaaat? I can't discover the potential of my class or of myself, when the s/pr, the ch/dr, the wr/pr or every other supp do the suppskills, when its not needed. Like u r on Jerath going in and all supp buffs come out when u down (or a other player) and can't get the buffs.
    Your statement here is a very bad joke.

    In a random run, you can compare absolutely nothing. Neither the strength of a class nor the skills of a player. There are far too many random factors (different gear, you play with or without LUA, you get support or not, etc.).

    Unfortunately, however, is balanced on such a crap, as it is written here.
    ~ Just my opinion.

    i would suggest you to understand what i mean firstly.


    if a class can't perform enough with those "bad supports", that class will not be played by 90% of server, thats a simple fact. your specific raids that set with high amount of supports is your own choice where you should change your class to the one which performs better with supports. in the other hand there are random raids where you always have a chance to get no/a bad support and forcing you to change your class to something else which performs enough without needing supports.


    one another way is to change every attack speed buffer in the game to % damage instead, to fix this issue in bigger scale.


    as i already mentioned on champion set skill suggestion, there are buffs that are boosting only small part of whole dps pool of game which is causing imbalance between classes in certain raid setups, but it is decision of raid to pick certain supports as long as it is affordable easily, like in past people were playing m/ch support for w/m dps, you pay literally nothing for such a support, but not for champion set skill.


    i just mentioned/implied that champion set skill is not easy to obtain and it is rather a chain booster than a common support utility. i would also support that this set skill give % damage to party members instead of % attack/cast speed rather than being personal buff either, my solely purpose behind this suggestion is to fix this diversion between different raid setups and that would also prevent people being annoyed who exchanged this set skill only for support purpose.


    Quote from xLutinex

    Scout/priest

    Spiritual Leader should not increase attack speed of group anymore. Only for caster


    Greetings

    i partly agree with this, but rather change attack speed to % damage than removing it entirely for group for the reasons i mentioned before on this message. most importantly, attack speed buffs are just enemy of fast weapon users during burst in current state of the game, especially for a scout with a bow.


    Quote from Zyrex

    I predict that the current mage meta shifts to a "mage & champ" one now.

    are you talking about the mage class by "mage" or magical classes in general? because i don't think mage was in meta at all since last few patches except maybe m/s and m/r.

    Quote from Zyrex

    The Sage rework seems to ignore the crit resistance of your targets in burst now

    my rogue is reaching 50k crit during burst and it still have 85% crit rate in rofl bosses when i don't use premeditation, which is 81-82% without assassins rage xD i don't think thats such a big boost

    the world chico, and everything in it.

    Quote from Serenadae
    Quote from Shilard

    Personally, I am against this change! I see that is a great buff for Champion (because of CD) and 'nerf' for the others.

    I don't think 3min cd instead of 4 will have a large impact on the overall performance of Champion dps. Keep in mind it's only a 15 seconds buff. As I've already written, if I should be wrong, an overperforming secondary class can always be adjusted.

    Speaking of "nerf", I don't think classes that are already overcapped in burst or mdps that don't profit from cast speed see it that way. When R/Wd's buff was changed to a selfbuff no one batted an eye either.

    I understand that you are upset since you got the iss for the sole purpose of supporting and I would be too, but high value investments were and still are a risk in the balancing process.

    Sincerely, I play only support with Champion. I would appreciate it if the 104 ISS is still a group Buff or perhaps should be better a raid Buff in shieldform. Because Champion/druid is so such nice support, why should be forced to change the buff only as selfbuff?

    Quote from Madox

    Healer classes used as dps are not supports. Your support potential is 0

    On offi server for me the K/P Battlerez was the stronges Skill in the game. A P/S dps or D/R Dps has access to the battlerez iss, which is obviously a support thing and much more worth than any matt/patt/dmg/speed buff. Having 1 additional battlerez opltion in the raid can change everything in a single boss fight. Also D/R has a huge crit support, but here also ppl have very different opinions, I know ^^

    Quote from Madox

    while D/R (after crap CPS change) and P/S are a joke

    Did you try the D/R these days? Before the last buff-patch of the widow embrace it was able to compete with average dps classes. At least for me, maybe my lua is just better or I had better luck, which results in my testing environment topic... :) Btw, if you use a D/R dps, you don't need a druid healer anymore, resulting in using a much better heal-support class instead, but I'm sure you have another opinion on that as well.

    Quote from espar91

    are you talking about the mage class by "mage" or magical classes in general? because i don't think mage was in meta at all since last few patches except maybe m/s and m/r.

    "mage" = "Mage class". I would say "mdps" if I mean "magical classes". Oh yes, mage was quite op and still is. You don't even need any casting spell (like flame) to deal decent dps in the overall run with M/D or M/Wd, just for example.

    Quote from espar91

    my rogue is reaching 50k crit during burst and it still have 85% crit rate in rofl bosses when i don't use premeditation, which is 81-82% without assassins rage xD i don't think thats such a big boost

    Funny thing, but I think the majority of our community has a lower crit, so do I ;)

    Quote from Shilard
    Quote from Serenadae

    I don't think 3min cd instead of 4 will have a large impact on the overall performance of Champion dps. Keep in mind it's only a 15 seconds buff. As I've already written, if I should be wrong, an overperforming secondary class can always be adjusted.

    Speaking of "nerf", I don't think classes that are already overcapped in burst or mdps that don't profit from cast speed see it that way. When R/Wd's buff was changed to a selfbuff no one batted an eye either.

    I understand that you are upset since you got the iss for the sole purpose of supporting and I would be too, but high value investments were and still are a risk in the balancing process.

    Sincerely, I play only support with Champion. I would appreciate it if the 104 ISS is still a group Buff or perhaps should be better a raid Buff in shieldform. Because Champion/druid is so such nice support, why should be forced to change the buff only as selfbuff?

    Although I like the current version of the iss, I honestly do not care much wether the buff affects the group or just the caster. As I said, don't think it makes a huge difference in overall damage.

    If devs were to change the status quo though, PLEASE keep the attack speed bonus for the caster. Fast autohits are important for Shock Overload.

    Quote from Zyrex
    Quote from xLutinex

    I see new meta again

    Yea, me too. I'm not that much active these days anymore, but just looking at the patchnotes, I predict that the current mage meta shifts to a "mage & champ" one now.

    Since the release of s/m mage classes where completely obsolete since s/m was able to do everything a mage could but better. (better and faster aoe burst, almost as good offburst and a lot better boss burst dmg)


    I mean you cant really know because you have been inactive right? So maybe stay away from making a comment like that then? The only playable mage classes where those that provide some party support or have rly good offburst.

    These past patches it was go wl or go home rly. If it was different in your guild runs maybe try to bring some more support classes, as pdps scales a lot better with support than mdps does.


    ~kind regards Noodlez

    Quote from Zyrex

    "mage" = "Mage class". I would say "mdps" if I mean "magical classes". Oh yes, mage was quite op and still is. You don't even need any casting spell (like flame) to deal decent dps in the overall run with M/D or M/Wd, just for example.

    then i would suggest you to get better pdps in your runs to compare yourself, because mage has no chance against almost any pdps class in current content.

    the world chico, and everything in it.

    Like 4
    Quote from Noodlez

    I mean you cant really know because you have been inactive right? So maybe stay away from making a comment like that then? The only playable mage classes where those that provide some party support or have rly good offburst.

    These past patches it was go wl or go home rly. If it was different in your guild runs maybe try to bring some more support classes, as pdps scales a lot better with support than mdps does.

    Well, we had always more support classes than actual dps classes, but however mage was always top tier in our runs. I wasn't talking about S/M bcz such broken classes first need to more adaption before being able to be compared to others. But yes, S/M is the very better mage and if it stays as is, we would probably rely on that one.


    But yea, here we are again, 2 different opinions and no way to find out what is the actual "objective truth". So if you say, mage is weak these days, fine, buff mage. Our guild will not suffer from that, just the opposite :D

    Quote from Serenadae
    Quote from Shilard

    Sincerely, I play only support with Champion. I would appreciate it if the 104 ISS is still a group Buff or perhaps should be better a raid Buff in shieldform. Because Champion/druid is so such nice support, why should be forced to change the buff only as selfbuff?

    Although I like the current version of the iss, I honestly do not care much wether the buff affects the group or just the caster. As I said, don't think it makes a huge difference in overall damage.

    If devs were to change the status quo though, PLEASE keep the attack speed bonus for the caster. Fast autohits are important for Shock Overload.

    Yes, that is the point. Because you are dps, you do only care about your damage, and I am interested in the class like Champion/druide as support. My suggestion is just like Vitalization of druide, the DEVs can make the Champion ISS104 perform different depending on the Shield form.