Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

Regarding the upcomming Warmage changes:

Quote

• Reduced Electrical Rage magical damage and defense gain per stack to 14.4% from 20.6%, increased skill damage to 1830% from 651.6%.
• Increased Berserk magical attack increment to 32.7% from 21.8%

I, personally, think that the nerf of ther first skill and the buff off the second one will balance each other out. You loose some sustain damage but gain some burst damage which, overall, should balance each other. After testing this class today again all I can ask is that you please consider buffing the aoe skills of this class.

While the single target/burst damage was quite good, good not op, the aoe damage was, excuse my language, complete garbage! Even with castspeed at its cap both skills did absolute no damage whatsoever.

Greetings.

Heyho,

1. - "Reduced Wisdom and Bravery transformation gain percentage to 40% 30% from 50%, increased duration to 300 seconds from 45 seconds, removed 60 seconds of cooldown."

In my opinion it is a bit too much for the first change. Maybe Put it to ~40% and after some testing you can nerf it again.

Other people with not so good buffgear won't get soo much from the buff too. If the % is too low it's maybe not worth getting a Buffgear.

Other classes like the mage/warden can have the same amount of matk like a mage/warrior (if wisdom and bravery get nerfed too much) with a buffgear in burst if the % goes too low and mage/warden has a much higher burst dmg.

2. As i mentioned before the mage/warrior dont have a strong single target burst dps compared to other classes or mages. This would suffer too from the lower % of wisdom and bravery.

But he can have a better dps over long fights(mainly trash)^^

3. "Changed Thunderstorm to create a thunderstorm in the designated area which inflicts damage 3 times within next 2 seconds instead of channelling at the location.

This is a very nice idea and would make Thunderstorm viable on more classes too. I know it's set to the future but it would be nice to just use it like an imprisonment pulse.^^ " Changed Elemental Explosion to no longer increase damage of Thunderstorm and Meteor Shower by 15%."

It is a reasonable way of nerf if the thunderstorm would get the change already but i guess i'll see the difference^^

Greetings

I have a suggestion that could help mages a lot: Remove the global cooldown of Electric Compression (ID: 491171). Then the static field-state could be triggered faster, which would help a lot in trashes or sustain dps of some combos. At the moment the gcd of it blocks my trash rota a lot, since it has to be reused every 20 seconds. The usage of plasma arrow is difficult enough for most use cases, at least I had some problems to hit a single cast of it in trashes in our runs. The gcd after it is just annoying to me.

Another suggestion for latest cenedril changes:

Up to now only cenedrils of the same generation will give you their buffs when combined.

I think removing that generation restriction would give players more variability in chosing which cenedrils to use. So that for exmaple Tatuin is combinable with not only Ardes or Garsit, but also with all the other older steadfast and mystical cenedrils.

Cheers!

Quote from Patchnotes

Knight/Champion

• Changed Mighty Strike to do not reduce cooldown of Shock Strike anymore.

2 questions about this adaption:

1) The cooldown for K/Ch of Shok Strike will remain on 3s, since its cd is generally reduced to 3s, correct?

2) Will the aggro multiplier of Shok Strike for K/Ch also be reduced? In that case please don't, this skill deals the perfect amount of aggro to use it on range in our runs, reducing it would make it kinda useless in my eyes.

Quote from Zyrex

1) The cooldown for K/Ch of Shok Strike will remain on 3s, since its cd is generally reduced to 3s, correct?

2) Will the aggro multiplier of Shok Strike for K/Ch also be reduced? In that case please don't, this skill deals the perfect amount of aggro to use it on range in our runs, reducing it would make it kinda useless in my eyes.

Honestly I think this skill was too strong anyway. Having a 100 range mana-based AoE with 10x multi and a stun every 3 seconds is way more than any other Knight has. Combining it with Electrocution Chain makes it even stronger. The skill being "only" a cone isnt that much of a drawback on Knights, as you usually face the direction mobs are coming from anyway.....

Also I dont understand why you generally plan to change the CD to 3sec - as a dps you rarely use it and with less CD you allow all champs (main and sec) even more CC...which they do not particularly lack

Originally I was considering to suggest an increase of Shock Strikes CD on Knight/Champ as well to 6sec, as it normally is/was.

Cheers!

Quote from melodic

Originally I was considering to suggest an increase of Shock Strikes CD on Knight/Champ as well to 6sec, as it normally is/was.

I play K/Ch only, since 1 week after it came out. I think talking about aggro potential as a knight is useless since all knight combos can hold aggro without any problem. So it's just a matter of utility and K/Ch has a lot of this, which is the core functionality of this class.
You don't just tank and do your own stuff, but you support your entire raid by a huge CC mechanic. The stacking, stunning, interrupting mechanics make this class unique, also the 3s are required for some specific parts in rofl. Increasing the cd would fail the purpose of the class imo. It's not that tanky as others and you always need to keep your stacks at 10 not to loose your def. Also the cone AoE requires some movement on many situation, even in our greater pulls.

However, talking about knight tank balancing seems to be a waste of time imho, because as mentioned, you can even play without any sec class to hold aggro, it doesn't matter if you have 100kk aggro after burst or 150kk. And every tank subclass has its own playstyle, that's why I'm playing this class and not a Ch/K. And if it comes to the topic which knight subclasses are too strong, the K/Ch wouldn't be on the first 2 or 3 places (but that could be a discussion for itself I guess). Also seeing few tanks not playing K/R is a good thing in my opinion

Every Knight tank supports its raid, not only K/Ch.

Where is stunning 1/3 of the time (Electrocution Chain not even included) required in rofl?! Does the rest of your raid have zero CC?

Increasing its CD does not fail any purpose, it is a mere nerf, no redsign or such.

Hitting one HS every 20sec isnt that big of a deal, it even works on immune mobs and bosses....

Other Knights have more sustainability, but way less CC. And not being able to AoE stun all the time does not make this class less viable.

Especially with Electrocution Chain you dont need that much movemnt, you take one step back -> hit all mobs.

Reasonable tank balancing indeed is not possible in current content, but when you say that holding aggro never is an issue and yet the aggro multi of Shock Strike musnt be reduced, you just talk nonsense in favor of your favourite class.

Reducing the aggro-multi of skills that generate too much aggro and too often, would be one of the first reasonable steps to take when we aim to find balance.

K/Ch definetly is one of the top tiered tanks, because denying the enemy all options do deal dmg to the raid (by stunning them) is the best you can do. You cant be killed by mobs that cant deal dmg.

Cheers!

Quote from melodic

And not being able to AoE stun all the time does not make this class less viable.

Well 1s each 3s isn't really like "all the time". And as I said, for Knight nothing is necessary, but utility means that you have something that is nice to have and enables some kind of bonus for the raid that other classes don't have. The stun that you mention as an ability to become literally immortal is more an interrupt in rofl than anything else and you can't deny interrupts are not required in rofl, so yes, I think it is required having such a low cooldown to be viable under all the other tanks, especially K/D or K/R, but also K/W.

You have 5 (five!) interrupts on this class, four of them are stuns and two of them are AoEs...and up to 11 players behind you who also can use CC....so no, I dont think you need to have such a low cooldown.

I guess we both made our points clear enough, so lets see what the team will decide.

Cheers!

The skill "Heroic Escape" is useless for the Knight /Warden , and even shameful for a tank. Change it to something more practical.

Quote from Zyrex

Quote from melodic

Originally I was considering to suggest an increase of Shock Strikes CD on Knight/Champ as well to 6sec, as it normally is/was.

I play K/Ch only, since 1 week after it came out. I think talking about aggro potential as a knight is useless since all knight combos can hold aggro without any problem. So it's just a matter of utility and K/Ch has a lot of this, which is the core functionality of this class.
You don't just tank and do your own stuff, but you support your entire raid by a huge CC mechanic. The stacking, stunning, interrupting mechanics make this class unique, also the 3s are required for some specific parts in rofl. Increasing the cd would fail the purpose of the class imo. It's not that tanky as others and you always need to keep your stacks at 10 not to loose your def. Also the cone AoE requires some movement on many situation, even in our greater pulls.

However, talking about knight tank balancing seems to be a waste of time imho, because as mentioned, you can even play without any sec class to hold aggro, it doesn't matter if you have 100kk aggro after burst or 150kk. And every tank subclass has its own playstyle, that's why I'm playing this class and not a Ch/K. And if it comes to the topic which knight subclasses are too strong, the K/Ch wouldn't be on the first 2 or 3 places (but that could be a discussion for itself I guess). Also seeing few tanks not playing K/R is a good thing in my opinion

Just one point of view of myself.

K/Ch has the ability the nearly stun all mobs in every trash group, even in massive pulls. The most dangerous for other classes than the tank can be the big pulls, where many mobs can use any AOE and kills the players. K/CH can stun all of them, pull them together and reset his cooldown while the mobs are killed Oo. If I think about our 2-3 dps runs, the 2 seconds stun is nearly enough to kill every mob of big pulls Oo -> resetting CD of AOE stun/pull instantl.

If I compare this mechanic to the Ch/Wl, it is kinda OP because the CH/Wl cannot reset his CD

And yes, shock strike, a nearly spammable 1000% aggro multiplier skill hmmm.... the reduce to 500% is also not noticable as a K/CH, because you have the highest damage passive of all knights. So please don't say something about aggro. The one knight which is having aggro "problems" is the K/P, because reducing aggro of raidmembers in 2021 is kinda useless, if all are at 10% without this skill

Quote from xLutinex

If I compare this mechanic to the Ch/Wl, it is kinda OP because the CH/Wl cannot reset his CD

Well, there are other classes that also are able to stun everything in any big pull. The CD reset afterwards isn't really necessary, because most mobs are dead after such a pull. Also I think, it requires at least a minimum of skill (and coordination, movement, raid setup...) to actually "do" big pulls, not to die oneself or taking aggro of everything, so it's fine I guess, but what do I know...

Another thing, if you have enough support with you, you don't even need to stun the mobs in the big pulls, because the dmg input is minimized, I think you know what I mean, if you even can tank as scout or rogue. So in my eyes it's just a utility, not op or necessary at all.

Quote from Kentt

The skill "Heroic Escape" is useless for the Knight /Warden , and even shameful for a tank. Change it to something more practical.

Maybe because k/wd is not supposed to be a tank? :O

Quote from Zyrex

Another thing, if you have enough support with you, you don't even need to stun the mobs in the big pulls, because the dmg input is minimized, I think you know what I mean, if you even can tank as scout or rogue. So in my eyes it's just a utility, not op or necessary at all.

Sooo..you are saying it wouldnt hurt if the CD would be higher?

Quote from Zyrex

also the 3s are required for some specific parts in rofl

and what was this about then?

Cheers!

Quote from melodic

Sooo..you are saying it wouldnt hurt if the CD would be higher?

Related to the "Electrocution Chain" it wouldn't matter, yes, because I use this only once in a big pull. But a higher cd for "Shock Strike" would matter ofc.

Quote from xLutinex

Quote from Zyrex

I play K/Ch only, since 1 week after it came out. I think talking about aggro potential as a knight is useless since all knight combos can hold aggro without any problem. So it's just a matter of utility and K/Ch has a lot of this, which is the core functionality of this class.
You don't just tank and do your own stuff, but you support your entire raid by a huge CC mechanic. The stacking, stunning, interrupting mechanics make this class unique, also the 3s are required for some specific parts in rofl. Increasing the cd would fail the purpose of the class imo. It's not that tanky as others and you always need to keep your stacks at 10 not to loose your def. Also the cone AoE requires some movement on many situation, even in our greater pulls.

However, talking about knight tank balancing seems to be a waste of time imho, because as mentioned, you can even play without any sec class to hold aggro, it doesn't matter if you have 100kk aggro after burst or 150kk. And every tank subclass has its own playstyle, that's why I'm playing this class and not a Ch/K. And if it comes to the topic which knight subclasses are too strong, the K/Ch wouldn't be on the first 2 or 3 places (but that could be a discussion for itself I guess). Also seeing few tanks not playing K/R is a good thing in my opinion

And yes, shock strike, a nearly spammable 1000% aggro multiplier skill hmmm.... the reduce to 500% is also not noticable as a K/CH, because you have the highest damage passive of all knights. So please don't say something about aggro. The one knight which is having aggro "problems" is the K/P, because reducing aggro of raidmembers in 2021 is kinda useless, if all are at 10% without this skill

"So please don't say something about aggro." Not a very nice way to discuss something. Don't tell people what to say and what not to say unless you want to come across as arrogant and condescending.

The K/Chs whole thing is that he controls monsters. That's it. He needs a good aggro skill since one of his main mechanics, electrocution chain, does not generate any. It's cooldown resets when monsters die, hence removing the need to use it again. The whole argument "you can use it multiple times" is invalid simply because moving dead monsters is frankly useless. A low cooldown hit is absolutely vital to the integrity of the class and whirling shield just does not cut it alone.

If there is any Knight being broken right now it's K/R. Seriously. There's a reason every meta chaser plays that class: Incredibly low skill ceiling, two aggro areas, free crit, extra def and sustaining oneself. Also the attack speed passive, nimble hands, grants a nice boost passive boost to ones aggro, since all aggro skills are based on DPS, not flat damage. Sure it's not as high as the K/Chs, but it's something.

It's seems like you can't see the absolute value of classes because you haven't properly played them yet, but that's just my two cents.

I fully agree on K/P though. Class could use an update to make it more relevant.

Quote from MidanLauert

Quote from xLutinex

And yes, shock strike, a nearly spammable 1000% aggro multiplier skill hmmm.... the reduce to 500% is also not noticable as a K/CH, because you have the highest damage passive of all knights. So please don't say something about aggro. The one knight which is having aggro "problems" is the K/P, because reducing aggro of raidmembers in 2021 is kinda useless, if all are at 10% without this skill

"So please don't say something about aggro." Not a very nice way to discuss something. Don't tell people what to say and what not to say unless you want to come across as arrogant and condescending.

The K/Chs whole thing is that he controls monsters. That's it. He needs a good aggro skill since one of his main mechanics, electrocution chain, does not generate any. It's cooldown resets when monsters die, hence removing the need to use it again. The whole argument "you can use it multiple times" is invalid simply because moving dead monsters is frankly useless. A low cooldown hit is absolutely vital to the integrity of the class and whirling shield just does not cut it alone.

If there is any Knight being broken right now it's K/R. Seriously. There's a reason every meta chaser plays that class: Incredibly low skill ceiling, two aggro areas, free crit, extra def and sustaining oneself. Also the attack speed passive, nimble hands, grants a nice boost passive boost to ones aggro, since all aggro skills are based on DPS, not flat damage. Sure it's not as high as the K/Chs, but it's something.

It's seems like you can't see the absolute value of classes because you haven't properly played them yet, but that's just my two cents.

I fully agree on K/P though. Class could use an update to make it more relevant.

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Sure I am arrogant, because I can

The "problem" in my eyes is the contradiction. First saying to not reduce aggro multi

Quote from Zyrex

2) Will the aggro multiplier of Shok Strike for K/Ch also be reduced? In that case please don't, this skill deals the perfect amount of aggro to use it on range in our runs, reducing it would make it kinda useless in my eyes

and then saying no knight have aggro issues

Quote from Zyrex

However, talking about knight tank balancing seems to be a waste of time imho, because as mentioned, you can even play without any sec class to hold aggro, it doesn't matter if you have 100kk aggro after burst or 150kk.

And the whole thing is only about the aggro Oo. Because the next patch will reduce shock strike CD to 3 sec for all classes. So what is the problem to reduce the aggro multiplier to 500%?

And yes, I played the K/Ch. Some mechanics can be kinda broken in some situations.

Regarding the K/R. He is strong yes, but has definitly not the best aggro. it is at rank 3 or 4.

And btw I know the values of the classes, maybe more than almost every other player, because I test things in detail.

Ontopic: Even 500% 3 sec aggro AOE is one of the strongest a knight have. And yes, only whirling shield + ISS is enough for every tank, because you can hold the aggro in rofl without any secondary class which means, that it is easier on harder content to do more aggro than dps classes comparing the damage the tank and dps dealing in rofl and new content

Kind regards

Quote from xLutinex

Quote from MidanLauert

"So please don't say something about aggro." Not a very nice way to discuss something. Don't tell people what to say and what not to say unless you want to come across as arrogant and condescending.

The K/Chs whole thing is that he controls monsters. That's it. He needs a good aggro skill since one of his main mechanics, electrocution chain, does not generate any. It's cooldown resets when monsters die, hence removing the need to use it again. The whole argument "you can use it multiple times" is invalid simply because moving dead monsters is frankly useless. A low cooldown hit is absolutely vital to the integrity of the class and whirling shield just does not cut it alone.

If there is any Knight being broken right now it's K/R. Seriously. There's a reason every meta chaser plays that class: Incredibly low skill ceiling, two aggro areas, free crit, extra def and sustaining oneself. Also the attack speed passive, nimble hands, grants a nice boost passive boost to ones aggro, since all aggro skills are based on DPS, not flat damage. Sure it's not as high as the K/Chs, but it's something.

It's seems like you can't see the absolute value of classes because you haven't properly played them yet, but that's just my two cents.

I fully agree on K/P though. Class could use an update to make it more relevant.

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Sure I am arrogant, because I can

The "problem" in my eyes is the contradiction. First saying to not reduce aggro multi

Quote from Zyrex

2) Will the aggro multiplier of Shock Strike for K/Ch also be reduced? In that case please don't, this skill deals the perfect amount of aggro to use it on range in our runs, reducing it would make it kinda useless in my eyes

and then saying no knight have aggro issues

Quote from Zyrex

However, talking about knight tank balancing seems to be a waste of time imho, because as mentioned, you can even play without any sec class to hold aggro, it doesn't matter if you have 100kk aggro after burst or 150kk.

And the whole thing is only about the aggro Oo. Because the next patch will reduce shock strike CD to 3 sec for all classes. So what is the problem to reduce the aggro multiplier to 500%?

And yes, I played the K/Ch. Some mechanics can be kinda broken in some situations.

Regarding the K/R. He is strong yes, but has definitly not the best aggro. it is at rank 3 or 4.

And btw I know the values of the classes, maybe more than almost every other player, because I test things in detail.

Ontopic: Even 500% 3 sec aggro AOE is one of the strongest a knight have. And yes, only whirling shield + ISS is enough for every tank, because you can hold the aggro in rofl without any secondary class which means, that it is easier on harder content to do more aggro than dps classes comparing the damage the tank and dps dealing in rofl and new content

Kind regards

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1) Arrogance made the big leaders fall. Don't be like them. Exile is not a fun thing to be in. Arrogance also heavily diminishes your credibility as you've shown partisanship in this discussion. Your pride is getting in the way of your own point.

2) The Knight currently has no aggro problems. The entire point is that aggro should not be changed otherwise there will be issues.
The general cooldown of three seconds and the removal of re-stuns (turning them into interrupts) is already enough of a nerf to that cc.

3) Why are you even talking about fixed numbers? We do not in fact have the proper number for the K/Chs aggro, since the knight doesn't even have the condition for shield form. That is the entire problem here. Zyrex simply asked if that change for the condition also affected the K/Chs aggro.

Please refrain from arguing about things that are not public knowledge or provide definitive proof of aggro multis. Educated guesses are not proof.

The community may be inclined to believe you but... 1).

Quote from xLutinex

and then saying no knight have aggro issues

Then this might be a misunderstanding. I meant that Shock Strike aggro matters in trashes if you want to hold aggro over some range. Then a 500% surely is not enough, today we had this issue in rofl as well, a mage pulled something by mistake, i threw a Shock Strike over to him, got the mob quite with a little advance in aggro. Reducing its aggro would make the skill as a range aggro skill useless for exactly those situations.

And the thing about "knight doesn't need subclasses to hold aggro" means, that it doesn't matter how big your aggro lead to other players is.

Again. Even Zyrex said that EVERY TANK has no aggro problems. wo WHY is that a PROBLEM nerfing the shock strike aggro multiplier?

Whirlwind SHield with an aggro multi of 1000% is nearly enough to be afk after 1 WS in a single trash group.

I tried every tank combination. really every. every class can hold aggro but K/R and K/Ch are kinda a joke in aggro as it is now

Quote from xLutinex

Again. Even Zyrex said that EVERY TANK has no aggro problems. wo WHY is that a PROBLEM nerfing the shock strike aggro multiplier?

Whirlwind SHield with an aggro multi of 1000% is nearly enough to be afk after 1 WS in a single trash group.

I tried every tank combination. really every. every class can hold aggro but K/R and K/Ch are kinda a joke in aggro as it is now

Because the K/Ch is balanced around it's Electrocution Chain, a skill that provides no aggro multi. You are not able to hold aggro after pulling without an AoE. Whirlwind shield is not enough for aggro if you have high area damage classes. That is the entire issue.
Taking down those multis makes the CC borderline useless. Come on. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

"The Knight currently has no aggro problems."

Indeed. That's why K/Ch will be fine, even with 6 sec cd on Shock Strike.

"The entire point is that aggro should not be changed otherwise there will be issues."

Not a single Knight combination has to rely on secondary-class specific skills to build and hold aggro. The default Knight skills (and iss) are more than enough.

Quote from Serenadae

Not a single Knight combination has to rely on secondary-class specific skills to build and hold aggro. The default Knight skills (and iss) are more than enough.

Yes!!! That's my point, so the aggro of Shock Strike doen't affect the overall aggro, but it's CC utility is the core mechanic of this class, but has to stay on 3s to enable this ability of CC how it is. The aggro of Shock Strike does only matter, if you use it in specific situations, but then it does.

Quote from MidanLauert

Quote from xLutinex

Again. Even Zyrex said that EVERY TANK has no aggro problems. wo WHY is that a PROBLEM nerfing the shock strike aggro multiplier?

Whirlwind SHield with an aggro multi of 1000% is nearly enough to be afk after 1 WS in a single trash group.

I tried every tank combination. really every. every class can hold aggro but K/R and K/Ch are kinda a joke in aggro as it is now

Because the K/Ch is balanced around it's Electrocution Chain, a skill that provides no aggro multi. You are not able to hold aggro after pulling without an AoE. Whirlwind shield is not enough for aggro if you have high area damage classes. That is the entire issue.
Taking down those multis makes the CC borderline useless. Come on. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

Tell me? How can tanks like K/M, K/P, K/S and K/D can hold aggro in such situations only with their whirlwind shield?

It's not a hard concept to grasp.

No offense.

And btw as K/CH the whirlwind shield is doing 45% more aggro then from K/M, K/P and K/D, because K/CH has a 45% damage passive, which improves all skills. In summary the ability of K/CH and the massive aggro output is like the K/R. both are totally OP in my opinion as a long year playing tank

Edit:

Quote from Zyrex

Quote from Serenadae

Not a single Knight combination has to rely on secondary-class specific skills to build and hold aggro. The default Knight skills (and iss) are more than enough.

Yes!!! That's my point, so the aggro of Shock Strike doen't affect the overall aggro, but it's CC utility is the core mechanic of this class, but has to stay on 3s to enable this ability of CC how it is. The aggro of Shock Strike does only matter, if you use it in specific situations, but then it does.

The 3 sec CD will be stayed at 3 seconds, because every /ch got 3 sec now