Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

Quote from Varondil

Quote from xLutinex

totally agree with that.

Changing in right now is no problem. Why? Because if you have 3/3 str/dex stats, then you have nearly the same physical attack (a bit lower, sure) buffed than before. That means, nearly same damage in instances and no problem to clear everything like before.

In my opinion it woild not be a good change. Yes, it is doable right now but you would lose patt as scout and
as rogue and no you would no do the same damage as you can notice every single point of patt in rolf and even in gorge. The real question is why do you guys want to change a running system the is in the game since day 1? (with some exceptiones, like rt time)

For me this is to make each gear type user specialized stat - str for chain, dex for leather, int for magic, sta for tank, wis for heals, makes sense. Will also simplify current all phys dps need pain situation - not a big deal but would help.

Loss of pa will be noticeable, I agree, which is why I mentioned it before. One idea could be to set up a transition period: have dex give 2.1 or 2.2 pa now (need to see how much more is needed so there is no loss in pa with current strstr and dexdex) with str give 0 - and then when new ini is out - say in a year - have dex give 2.0 pa to scouts or rogues - that way I think it may work well.

Quote from Varondil

In my opinion it woild not be a good change. Yes, it is doable right now but you would lose patt as scout and
as rogue and no you would no do the same damage as you can notice every single point of patt in rolf and even in gorge. The real question is why do you guys want to change a running system the is in the game since day 1? (with some exceptiones, like rt time)

I dont care if any change here is made or not since it does not affect me in any way, though I am wondering too why all of a sudden this has become a topic, being as it is and working since day1 of this game

Quote from xLutinex

To close the gap because scouts and rogues are lacking of physical attack atm if you compare with other classes and damage of other classes in several situations (many targets, single target, off-burst, full-burst)

I did many rofl runs since the class balancing and every day after every patch. the main problem of a scout and rogue (except rogue/warlock because of his strong dark-damage boost) is the low physical attack

well we have done some runs aswell and i did run with a lot of diffrent classes. it is easy to be on first place in scrut as scout. well maybe not that easy as it is with other classes but it is also the to hard to do. rogues and scouts dont buff them self up to a lot of patt they get crit and attackspeed. And thats also why the extreamly scale with patt and pdmg. i dont know your gear right now but last time if have seen you you did not have a single ultimate pice. so i can say that your dmg will increass by a lot if you start building the first items. i did see the diffrence on my equipment. And to get more patt i think it would be better to just set the scaling for bouth classes to 1.5 patt from str and dex as it is as my last informations from a dev were 1.2 dex and 1.3 str for scout and 1.3 dex and 1.2 str for rogue.

Heyho,

I tested something with the Mage/warden and i really like the changes that already were made. ( /knight, /priest too^^)

But i saw that "Earth Core Barrier" doesnt proc the second hit on "Earth Wave" atm. I dont know if it is intended.

But if it get changed the "Earth Wave" should be a 2.5 cast because the damage output would be high.

Also the Change of the mage/scout is very nice and it's still very strong in my opinion. Still no reason to Cast "Flame" because it does less damage than a "Shot" in fullburst and all AS slows are cast slows too so "Shot" is still the better choice to use. Maybe Lowering the damage of "Shot" and increasing some matk (for higher instances) would be a nice change.

Thanks

Quote from Varondil

Quote from xLutinex

To close the gap because scouts and rogues are lacking of physical attack atm if you compare with other classes and damage of other classes in several situations (many targets, single target, off-burst, full-burst)

I did many rofl runs since the class balancing and every day after every patch. the main problem of a scout and rogue (except rogue/warlock because of his strong dark-damage boost) is the low physical attack

well we have done some runs aswell and i did run with a lot of diffrent classes. it is easy to be on first place in scrut as scout. well maybe not that easy as it is with other classes but it is also the to hard to do. rogues and scouts dont buff them self up to a lot of patt they get crit and attackspeed. And thats also why the extreamly scale with patt and pdmg. i dont know your gear right now but last time if have seen you you did not have a single ultimate pice. so i can say that your dmg will increass by a lot if you start building the first items. i did see the diffrence on my equipment. And to get more patt i think it would be better to just set the scaling for bouth classes to 1.5 patt from str and dex as it is as my last informations from a dev were 1.2 dex and 1.3 str for scout and 1.3 dex and 1.2 str for rogue.

I compare with classes with same gear. No need to build ultimate gear till balancing is finished. I am just argumenting from a perspective for balancing between different classes in different situations.

yes, it would be a "problem" for me too, if str does not give any point of patk now, but i don't care. I said scouts and rogues lacks of patk, that's a fact and the devs can see the damage from each class in the instances i guess. so whether they think it should changed or not.

It was a suggestion and I agreed because I like the idea

P.S. maybe something around 1.5 - 1.7 patk per point from str/ges is also ok for people already did new Items

Quote from Varondil

well we have done some runs aswell and i did run with a lot of diffrent classes. it is easy to be on first place in scrut as scout. well maybe not that easy as it is with other classes but it is also the to hard to do

Logic?

If its easier with other classes to deal most dmg, why are they not 1. place in scrut then?

And as long as you say its "easier" with other classes, Lutines point is proven I would say.

Can't say this often enough apparently:

You should always compare players with similar gear and skill-lvl to get reasonable results about how classes compare to each other and look at an entire run, not just specific situations, because obviously here different strengths and weaknesses of classes come into play.

For every class there should be a good balance in strengths and weaknesses throughout an instance, otherwise it favours certain classes more than others and this fact will have to be taken into consideration as well.

So for the best results dont just look at one instance but all that are regularly run.

Quote from Varondil

as my last informations from a dev were 1.2 dex and 1.3 str for scout and 1.3 dex and 1.2 str for rogue.

Last time I asked Grox about that after doing my own calculations he told me Devs are not allowed to validate or give any info about game mechanics in this depth. So I guess the team should revise their policy concerning stuff like that bringing all Devs to the same page.

The change would be a cool idea, if there would be some kind of help for all the rogues/scouts. High tierd items would have to getting destroyed, just to re-statt and invest tons of money/time again. High tiered runes would need to get rebuild again, since str runes would be useless for those classes, again, lot of costs.

The stat values could be higherd. This would solve the problem of the missing patk in an instant (or would at least help strongly to fix it). And why shouldnt the rogue have 2 mainstats? because other classes dont do that ? But what about the Knight, he uses str/stam and stam/stam aswell. The healers are using stam/stam and now wisd/wisd aswell (maybe stam/wisd aswell, not sure tho). If you want, a champion Tank would use str/str and str/stam aswell.

Quote from Shino

The change would be a cool idea, if there would be some kind of help for all the rogues/scouts. High tierd items would have to getting destroyed, just to re-statt and invest tons of money/time again. High tiered runes would need to get rebuild again, since str runes would be useless for those classes, again, lot of costs.

The stat values could be higherd. This would solve the problem of the missing patk in an instant (or would at least help strongly to fix it). And why shouldnt the rogue have 2 mainstats? because other classes dont do that ? But what about the Knight, he uses str/stam and stam/stam aswell. The healers are using stam/stam and now wisd/wisd aswell (maybe stam/wisd aswell, not sure tho). If you want, a champion Tank would use str/str and str/stam aswell.

I agree, was also just an idea and I personally not sure it is feasible to change it; also completely forgot about the runes haha good point!

In terms of pa issue - what I observe is rogues tend to do VERY VERY well at lower pd instances - the way they set up was always more about speed and less pa. I suspect if pa is buffed, rogues will be new master race hands down. Scouts before the patch were top burst class no idea how they are now, since as I said we don't have a scout in a run.

But in general since scout is range and thus "safer" distance away than melee, I always thought it makes sense for range classes (includes any range classes like mage too for example) to do less damage, but this is ofc my personal opinion

Quote from melodic

Logic?

If its easier with other classes to deal most dmg, why are they not 1. place in scrut then?

And as long as you say its "easier" with other classes, Lutines point is proven I would say.

No thats not true. Its alot to explane but for example the old champ did not need to time his spells and cd well to do top dps. But if you timeed your spells and cd right you could get near the old champ as scout (well not over the champ but rly close). And there is a lot more that come on top of the skill and cd useage.

Same it is now if you just use your spells and spamm your makro a lot of classes will outdeal you but if you know what you have to use were it is "easy" to outdpas every other class. And this is what i meant with it is easyer with other classes.

Quote from Rakot_Hades

In terms of pa issue - what I observe is rogues tend to do VERY VERY well at lower pd instances - the way they set up was always more about speed and less pa. I suspect if pa is buffed, rogues will be new master race hands down. Scouts before the patch were top burst class no idea how they are now, since as I said we don't have a scout in a run.

But in general since scout is range and thus "safer" distance away than melee, I always thought it makes sense for range classes (includes any range classes like mage too for example) to do less damage, but this is ofc my personal opinion

Yes!! Thats my point scouts and rogues do scale extreamly with patt they get the highest attackspeeds and critchances /crit dmg so thats why you should be carefule with changes i dont have a finished gear yet but as i sad i notice every single point of patt. lets just look at gorge, in gorge a full equiped scout could do the same dmg as a champ. Now ofc if you go in to rofl with full gorge gear classes that have a higher patt will do more dmg but they also dont scale that crazy like a leather wearer is.

Quote from melodic

similar gear and skill-lvl

...and here we go:

Quote from Varondil

the old champ did not need to time his spells and cd well to do top dps. But if you timeed your spells and cd right you could get near the old champ as scout

Here you obviously compare different palyers with different skill-lvl.

As champion it indeed matteres/-d when to use which skills and buffs.

If your assumption were correct, all players playing as champions and similar gear would have dealt the same dmg all the time, but this is/was not the case.

You see a lot of champion players dealing more dmg than others, having similar gear.

So comparing a scout with "optimal" skill usage/timing with a champion with suboptimal skill usage/timing does not work at all.

Thats just what my previous post was all about.

Just reconsider.

Thanks.

Quote from Varondil

es!! Thats my point scouts and rogues do scale extreamly with patt they get the highest attackspeeds and critchances /crit dmg so thats why you should be carefule with changes i dont have a finished gear yet but as i sad i notice every single point of patt. lets just look at gorge, in gorge a full equiped scout could do the same dmg as a champ. Now ofc if you go in to rofl with full gorge gear classes that have a higher patt will do more dmg but they also dont scale that crazy like a leather wearer is.

Offtopic: hint from me: the setbonus from chain ultimate set is even stronger than from leather. that's cause 2% attackspeed > 2% damag. You can ask the dev for the damage formula. Maybe it was changed since 2016

On Topic: that is your opinion. Mine was that in general scouts and rogues lacking of physical attack.

This is a huge huge patch we all were waiting, really nice and deep in class changes. Lets go:

Mages:

M/R feels now really balanced after yesterday patch, it doesnt have the best burst, sustain or aoe but pretty decent in all those aspects making this class really fun to play.

M/S have the best sustain and that is what this class should be doing since 5 min casting buffs or guitar is useless for its burst tho.

All the other mages combo got really interesting now since all have their own elemental damage and a 3 second cast spammable skill, good job with that. I still see 2 handicaps with mages, their sustain is low (m/r have 2 cast runes and m/s have shot-spam, nothing to say, even m/w have cast skill 50% of the time), i would suggest some skill or passive to increase casting or even a golden aldo talisman with all elemental dmg increase (not only fire) so we can have 2 cast runes in our sustain dmg.

The second handicap is their aoe dmg, is a shame xD M/R got really nice improvement on this point having their purge doing x2 dmg, fire and dark. Why not make that for all mages combos? fire + their elemental dmg so all can have some aoes.

Noone of these changes would increase their burst, only their aoe/sustain dmg so they can keep up with rest of dps and/or m/r, m/s and m/w.

About leather classes using dexterity only, I support this idea. You guys are finally trying to make wisdom usefull, why not make this change with dexterity now aswell? It there is a good time for it, this is it. #Deftness stat should be used.

EDIT --Warden / Druid.

Sustained dmg and aoes are really decent now, i take back what i just said :D. Still need some burst from somewhere tho.

I have to admit i would have never imagined adding 2 second cast skills into this class and making them instant but with cast dmg was possible, that was nice xD Couldnt try much this class but the few tests i did, removing the dmg of white hit make that these changes are just not enough to use this class as endgame dps. I would say to increase those skills to 3 second cast since its earth passive dmg is way lower than mage one. Other thing, this class have almost non existant burst, mostly all ISS and short buffs are for pdmg, any thought about adding them for magic? I would really like to try this class. Another proposition, please bring the taunt back, my mage tank gear could be used with this class as we could with warrior/mage

These are just my thought about the classes i play, btw thx for fixing briar and m/r 15 min buff.

I agree with Madoxx post about the mages but if there are changes like this please don't add a talisman like aldo which is even stronger with all elemental damage. It would make the 2h staff useless for every class then and i like the fact that 2h staff is now a viable good weapon.

Quote from Persil

I agree with Madoxx post about the mages but if there are changes like this please don't add a talisman like aldo which is even stronger with all elemental damage. It would make the 2h staff useless for every class then and i like the fact that 2h staff is now a viable good weapon.

then better a skill

Suggestion - Madox just mentioned it as an idea and I took a liberty of posting -

could we have an option to buy speed shoes (e.g. Mud Shoes in RoFL) with longer expiration time - could be 1 week +/or 1 month option - will scale with ac coins but heavy discount, would be nice!

I Suggest Buffing D/R class combo Because all other classes got buff and i don't see D/R Gettting Buff

Regarding Wd/D

Quote from Madox

Still need some burst from somewhere tho.

idk what you did - burst seems fine for me.

On a more serious note: The current implementation is busted³ when playing Wd/D in pdps gear. Adding cast multiplicator to the phys part of the usual warden skills and converting them into earth damage (which in turn is increased by Magical Awakening and debuffs on the target) results in some absurd damage values, say 70M CC on Balton.

The skill Shetamb's Think Tank (ID 850148) sometimes is not active anymore although the skill is equiped (e.g. after you died). You have to switch it with another setskill or un- and reequip an item in order for it to work again.

Knight/Priest: "Holy Protection" (491640).

Would be cool if this could be a full raidbuff, currently its a singletarget buff which i have to give every single person one by one.

Quote from xLutinex

If rogues would be pushed, the rogue/warlock should be changed. Because atm the class is very strong at single target. Got two skills dealing more damage each than a snipe from a scout and have a very low cooldown with 4 seconds. also the white hits are hitting hard with the new dark damage formula

1) They don't hit as hard as snipe.

2) Focus decreases very fast so you can't use those skills every 4seconds unless u use a potion but that has cooldown too...

oh yes, I almost forgot, I would really like the siege titles to work for the whole raid. I think everyone would be happy about this.

Raising unplayable ligaments is very good, it had to be done for a long time, but I don’t understand why you are destroying ligaments with which you can play normally?

You took all the basic skills from the Champion and replaced them with useless rubbish, an attack on the square with the champion is now impossible, you should at least return something to the champions, otherwise people who play him all the time and who don’t like other ligaments will start to leave the game.

If you think that the champion is doing heavy damage over the area, it was necessary to reduce the damage from skills and not completely replace the skills with useless garbage, why do this?

I’ll tell you as it is, everyone with whom I spoke on this topic is very nilly unhappy with this, just not everyone writes about it on the forum . Mostly everyone doesn't like the changes with skill Kinetic Burn and Rune Overload.

Rune Overload doesn’t work now without a shield shape, and in the form of a shield there is no use for the skill, this is unacceptable, and removing the Kinetic Burn skill and replacing it with useless trash is also unacceptable, most players do not like the changes with these skills.

You also replaced the skill of Champion/Warrior "Deadland Protection" with a garbage skill, it is certainly not completely useless, but it cannot be compared to what it was before, if you thought that 100% protection was a lot, you had to reduce it to 50% or even less, why Replace core skill with junk skill.

nstead of balancing playable ligaments, you destroy already playable classes and ligaments; this is not correct.

It was necessary to reduce the damage from skills and not completely replace them with others, such a change should always be done very carefully and gradually, and not all at once, otherwise it could lead to bad consequences. These negative aspects cross out all positive changes.

I really hope that part of the changes with the champions will be canceled, they are played by too many players to destroy the class and completely change its task in the group at one point.

Idk from wich Champion combo you Talk about Eneler but Champion/rouge seems for me good balanced now. I played it before and also want a nerf on him, all chain using player just played Champion before, becaurse it’s was just to op. Now it’s still have good Aoe and also good Single target Dmg. If you know how to play, you still one of the top dps in ini.