Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

Quote from Eneler

Raising unplayable ligaments is very good, it had to be done for a long time, but I don’t understand why you are destroying ligaments with which you can play normally?

You took all the basic skills from the Champion and replaced them with useless rubbish, an attack on the square with the champion is now impossible, you should at least return something to the champions, otherwise people who play him all the time and who don’t like other ligaments will start to leave the game.

If you think that the champion is doing heavy damage over the area, it was necessary to reduce the damage from skills and not completely replace the skills with useless garbage, why do this?

I’ll tell you as it is, everyone with whom I spoke on this topic is very nilly unhappy with this, just not everyone writes about it on the forum . Mostly everyone doesn't like the changes with skill Kinetic Burn and Rune Overload.

Rune Overload doesn’t work now without a shield shape, and in the form of a shield there is no use for the skill, this is unacceptable, and removing the Kinetic Burn skill and replacing it with useless trash is also unacceptable, most players do not like the changes with these skills.

You also replaced the skill of Champion/Warrior "Deadland Protection" with a garbage skill, it is certainly not completely useless, but it cannot be compared to what it was before, if you thought that 100% protection was a lot, you had to reduce it to 50% or even less, why Replace core skill with junk skill.

nstead of balancing playable ligaments, you destroy already playable classes and ligaments; this is not correct.

It was necessary to reduce the damage from skills and not completely replace them with others, such a change should always be done very carefully and gradually, and not all at once, otherwise it could lead to bad consequences. These negative aspects cross out all positive changes.

I really hope that part of the changes with the champions will be canceled, they are played by too many players to destroy the class and completely change its task in the group at one point.

Display More

Really, to be honest. Did you ever played the champion without being afk or without as a "follow-alt-afk-dps"?

To be honest. The champion does still most dps, especially if you always pull more than 2.

With the new kinetic you are more flexible now, you can set 2 aoe skills and still able to use other skills.

I don't know, with which persons you spoke, but I don't know a single person, that says "the champion is garbage or useless now". You just need to be active now in the instance and you cannot play in leather gear as easy as it was before (like I did).

Quote from inka

Regarding Wd/D

Quote from Madox

Still need some burst from somewhere tho.

idk what you did - burst seems fine for me.

On a more serious note: The current implementation is busted³ when playing Wd/D in pdps gear. Adding cast multiplicator to the phys part of the usual warden skills and converting them into earth damage (which in turn is increased by Magical Awakening and debuffs on the target) results in some absurd damage values, say 70M CC on Balton.

@Devs: please the warden/druid is broken³. I testedafter patch and hoped, I missunderstood the last patch notes. More clearly: the p-dps values of all the skills are still active even with Beast Awakening. If a pdd would do, say 10.000.000 damage on a target unbuffed as only main warden class (without secondary class), the same pdd equip would do more than 3 times the damage if he switches the secondary class to /druid and buffs Beast Awakening. This skill is broken for pdd gear with the warden/druid

Mage/Scout

The passive skill "Fire Rose Storm" (ID 503273) should grant extra magical damage when you use "Fire Rose Explosion" (ID 491344) but grants it while using "Fire Rose" (ID 491343)

Heyo ,

First of all i wanted to say Thanks to the DEV/GM Team for making this Class Balance so diverse(even tho i have mixed feelings about some buffs/nerfs) . From (nearly) every Class combination there are 2-3 or more combinations viable in InI runs .

I personally find it sad that the Champion is still so overpowered (from an Overal Scruti Perspective) and is still obliterating Trashmobs in every Custom Instance . And it was not made better that now are 3 (from what i have seen so far) Champion combinations that strong.

Scout:

I do not like the Changes made too Scout aswell because i feel like the core task a Scout has(Singel Target Bursting) was heavily nerfed with the changes to Warlocks Soul Seal and Knights Authoriative Deterrence

( i know these changes are overall better for the whole Group but indirectly nerfed the scout because he is heavily Support dependend ) .

The Adjustments/Buffs the Scout got directly are nice no questions asked but overall cant compete with the indirect nerfs in my opinion .

I can understand that you want to reduce the Scouts burst Potential because it was too high , i agree on that , hitting

150- 400kk Snipes in Custom Instances was way too high but i feel like the adjustments made where too much because now we are at maybee40-75kk Snipes ( havent tested everything regarding that but thats an average i saw from me and guildmates)

and you get Out DPS´ed by nearly every other Class when Bursting a Boss. As i said before that just missed the Point of the core task of a Scout ( in my opinion).

I feel like with the Classbalance the Overall Scout was pushed more into the Trashclear Side , eventho he cant compete there ( not even close) with e.g Champions Wardens or Warriors. ( One example why could be because the overall Leather Classes are lacking Patk compared to Champions Wardens or Warriors)

Scout/Rouge :

I like that the idea of Sapping Arrow giving some Patk but i feel like the 6% are a little too low.

Scout / Rouge is probably the best subclass to profit from the Changes too Piercing Arrow and Reflected Shot so good change there .

Scout/Druid :

The removed Cast Time of the Snipe and the "extra mini Snipe" Curse Bringer makes the Scout Druid an really interesting combination and in my Opinion the second strongest subclass at the moment.

The missing Patk from the Offhand is "compensated" with the Focus skill , but i feel like 50% are not enough to compete with e.g the /rouge and i would suggest changing the 50% to 75-100%

Scout/Warden :

The /Warden probably profits the most from the Increased Shot damage here but at the same time the Entling Offering was a bit nerfed so :D. Also the 10s Charged Chop are a really nice Thing . I personally do not like to play the /warden because it feels too cluncky but it is a nice adjustment for all the /Warden players out there

Scout/Warrior :

The /Warrior has everything all Scout Classes should have/get but at the same time is missing everything a Scout Class has/should have . With all the selfbuffs the /warrior has overall the most Patk / can reach the highest Patk but at the same time is missing good AoE skills . Vital Reflection is trying to counter that missing AoE a bit but too be honest at the current state of the Game most trashmobs dont live more then 2 seconds so the "extra Reflected Shot Damage when the Target is under 50% HP" is basically useless because the trash dies too fast .

With the Changes to the skill Breathing Obstruction and the reduced Cooldown of Snipe to 10 Seconds i would suggest to lower the cooldown of Mana Drain shot also too 10seconds to not make this skill too cluncky to use

Greetings

"I personally find it sad that the Champion is still so overpowered (from an Overal Scruti Perspective) and is still obliterating Trashmobs in every Custom Instance . And it was not made better that now are 3 (from what i have seen so far) Champion combinations that strong."

Please note at least one champ I know you talking about is an incredibly good player, and has 4 gold pieces and t18 hammer, while last I checked you did not upgrade your gear except bow, new golden gear is incredibly strong.

Second, I run with mages who do more aoe damage than champ, why this obsession with champs, I am so tired of it. Champ atm is a good sustained class, not tanky like before, not op burst, not op aoe.

Third, burst damage again atm at least I see r/wl and m/r winning easily, not champ, and this is just from my runs.

The fact you can do 40-75 kk snipe without golden gear means with golden gear you will again be among top burst dps classes in game; just make some golden gear and try...

Lastly, I commented before and also others did, if leather users will gain much more pa, it will become broken, I strongly disagree they lack pa and running with them on lower pd instances and doing incredibly well is a testimony of it.

Quote from Rakot_Hades

Please note at least one champ I know you talking about is an incredibly good player, and has 4 gold pieces and t18 hammer, while last I checked you did not upgrade your gear except bow, new golden gear is incredibly strong.

Yes i thing we all know Serenadae is the best Champion on the Server + he has really nice gear , but doing at an overall InI Run nearly 4x more damage then me and other Scouts / x2 more then the whole raid is a bit too much dont you think ? ( with 3 different Class combinations by the way ) And he is not the only Champion in my Guild and the Difference is there too high also .

Quote from Rakot_Hades

Second, I run with mages who do more aoe damage than champ, why this obsession with champs, I am so tired of it. Champ atm is a good sustained class, not tanky like before, not op burst, not op aoe.

First of all Mage/rouge got nerfed in the recent Patches and cant compete with a Champ now( if you know what you are doing on Champ obviously) (talking overall Damage/Aoe Damage.)

You should maybe rerun and see for yourself

Obsession ? of course you have to write /argue a lot about that class when it is so broken

Quote from Rakot_Hades

Third, burst damage again atm at least I see r/wl and m/r winning easily, not champ, and this is just from my runs.

The fact you can do 40-75 kk snipe without golden gear means with golden gear you will again be among top burst dps classes in game; just make some golden gear and try...

The 40-75kk Snipes are an overall average from all Custom Instances and the 40kk for example was from Balton.
And here again , Champion and currently Warden and Mage just destroy that Boss .
I am talking ~20 kk Runepulse ( keep in mind it is Spammable and Snipe is not !) and 50-70kk Charged Chops from Wardens ( here again , it is spammable and Snipe not !)

And i dont see a difference here when the champions/ wardens etc finish their golden gear or the Scout does. I know as you mentioned that i do not have a golden upperset rn like e.g the champs but you cant be that naive that this will close this big gap

Quote from Rakot_Hades

Lastly, I commented before and also others did, if leather users will gain much more pa, it will become broken, I strongly disagree they lack pa and running with them on lower pd instances and doing incredibly well is a testimony of it.

I agree on that note , but i think they should increase Patk from Leather Classes but should watch closely on the damage output and balance carefully here

Quote from Cruvor

Quote from Rakot_Hades

Please note at least one champ I know you talking about is an incredibly good player, and has 4 gold pieces and t18 hammer, while last I checked you did not upgrade your gear except bow, new golden gear is incredibly strong.

Yes i thing we all know Serenadae is the best Champion on the Server + he has really nice gear , but doing at an overall InI Run nearly 4x more damage then me and other Scouts / x2 more then the whole raid is a bit too much dont you think ? ( with 3 different Class combinations by the way ) And he is not the only Champion in my Guild and the Difference is there too high also .

Quote from Rakot_Hades

Second, I run with mages who do more aoe damage than champ, why this obsession with champs, I am so tired of it. Champ atm is a good sustained class, not tanky like before, not op burst, not op aoe.

First of all Mage/rouge got nerfed in the recent Patches and cant compete with a Champ now( if you know what you are doing on Champ obviously) (talking overall Damage/Aoe Damage.)

You should maybe rerun and see for yourself

Obsession ? of course you have to write /argue a lot about that class when it is so broken

Quote from Rakot_Hades

Third, burst damage again atm at least I see r/wl and m/r winning easily, not champ, and this is just from my runs.

The fact you can do 40-75 kk snipe without golden gear means with golden gear you will again be among top burst dps classes in game; just make some golden gear and try...

The 40-75kk Snipes are an overall average from all Custom Instances and the 40kk for example was from Balton.
And here again , Champion and currently Warden and Mage just destroy that Boss .
I am talking ~20 kk Runepulse ( keep in mind it is Spammable and Snipe is not !) and 50-70kk Charged Chops from Wardens ( here again , it is spammable and Snipe not !)

And i dont see a difference here when the champions/ wardens etc finish their golden gear or the Scout does. I know as you mentioned that i do not have a golden upperset rn like e.g the champs but you cant be that naive that this will close this big gap

Quote from Rakot_Hades

Lastly, I commented before and also others did, if leather users will gain much more pa, it will become broken, I strongly disagree they lack pa and running with them on lower pd instances and doing incredibly well is a testimony of it.

I agree on that note , but i think they should increase Patk from Leather Classes but should watch closely on the damage output and balance carefully here

Display More

idk if you do already, but in case you don't, maybe you should consider using xbow instead of bow then if you want to burst for real since they capped attack speed; clearly, bow is for sustain, not burst anymore

Quote from Rakot_Hades

You are not upgrading your gear yet seems like you expect to be comparable with chain users that have upgraded theirs.

Quote from Cruvor

And he is not the only Champion in my Guild and the Difference is there too high also

As mentioned above, he did not compare this with Serenadae alone but also with our other Champs, which also have not upgraded their equiment yet.

Greetings.

Quote from Persil

But i saw that "Earth Core Barrier" doesnt proc the second hit on "Earth Wave" atm. I dont know if it is intended.

But if it get changed the "Earth Wave" should be a 2.5 cast because the damage output would be high.

I'm sorry i obviously meant "Earth Surge". It doesn't hit twice like it should while using "Earth Core Barrier".

Quote from espar91

Quote from Cruvor

...

idk if you do already, but in case you don't, maybe you should consider using xbow instead of bow then if you want to burst for real since they capped attack speed; clearly, bow is for sustain, not burst anymore

What do you mean? Attack speed is capped for auto shot, that you can't use it 5 times per sec anymore. More attackspeed still pushes the damage and that makes no difference for e.g. Snipe with bow or xbow. The bow dps counts for Snipe. If you play Scout as "only auto shot", then yes, xbow would be better. But after the fix of attack speed cap, the xbow lost auto-shot machine gun like the bow and that's why skills will do more damage -> bow > xbow.

Don't seduce new or unexperienced players to get a xbow, which is worse than bow

Greetings

Quote from xLutinex

Quote from espar91

idk if you do already, but in case you don't, maybe you should consider using xbow instead of bow then if you want to burst for real since they capped attack speed; clearly, bow is for sustain, not burst anymore

What do you mean? Attack speed is capped for auto shot, that you can't use it 5 times per sec anymore. More attackspeed still pushes the damage and that makes no difference for e.g. Snipe with bow or xbow. The bow dps counts for Snipe. If you play Scout as "only auto shot", then yes, xbow would be better. But after the fix of attack speed cap, the xbow lost auto-shot machine gun like the bow and that's why skills will do more damage -> bow > xbow.

Don't seduce new or unexperienced players to get a xbow, which is worse than bow

Greetings

i tested it on the first day, if they didn't revert it, attack speed is capped at 0.5 now unlike pre-patch, i was reaching 0.23 speed values with bow, now i can't

and just a simple math result, that means your burst is nerfed to 50% on burst with bow

Quote from Ashlynn

Quote from Cruvor

I know that m/r burst is really strong and obviously stronger then scout but weaker then champs / wardens from what ive seen so far

Im curious wehre did you take your information from that m/r burst is weaker than champ or warden bursts, as far as I know and im a mage player myself I did a lot more burst that Champs or wardens in several runs guild intern and extern too. So wehre did u take ur information from because that statement is nonsense when you based it from your own experience with guild members

Greets

Ah yes that was a fail from my Part sorry, i just talked to some m/r and rechecked some screenshots

the burst is indeed better then Champs

Quote from espar91

Quote from xLutinex

What do you mean? Attack speed is capped for auto shot, that you can't use it 5 times per sec anymore. More attackspeed still pushes the damage and that makes no difference for e.g. Snipe with bow or xbow. The bow dps counts for Snipe. If you play Scout as "only auto shot", then yes, xbow would be better. But after the fix of attack speed cap, the xbow lost auto-shot machine gun like the bow and that's why skills will do more damage -> bow > xbow.

Don't seduce new or unexperienced players to get a xbow, which is worse than bow

Greetings

i tested it on the first day, if they didn't revert it, attack speed is capped at 0.5 now unlike pre-patch, i was reaching 0.23 speed values with bow, now i can't

attack speed in char info screen != damage of skills.

The attack speed cap (2 hits per second per weapon) does not mean, that you does not do more damage with more attack speed buffs with skills. Otherwise you would do less less less damage as rogue than pre patch.

So, I just want to say something now about the whole balancing thing that are going on. First off, all, I have a question to you all. For me it seems like you all do like one run with a curtained combo and if you’re not on top of the scrut your class is to weak and needs a buff. So, am I right about this one?

It is not possible to do a real balancing in the actual state of the game. Yes, you can have comparable gear but pls than compare your gear and classes in gorge and not in rofl. You can’t compare your classes with in rofl without a full ultimate set!! All the stats from mobs in rofl are higher the one in gorge and you have a lot of classes with deferent scaling. So, if you want to do a real compare go to gorge with 12 ppl with equal gear and compare your dmg. The outcome will be much more accurate then a rofl run.

"Ah yes that was a fail from my Part sorry, i just talked to some m/r and the burst is indeed better then Champs"

Thank you, I appreciate honest response, since m/r in my runs clearly does more on burst versus champ; same with aoes m/r does more than champ, but champ does better as sustain, which is what balance should be about - not have one class which is better in all.

Quote from xLutinex

Quote from espar91

i tested it on the first day, if they didn't revert it, attack speed is capped at 0.5 now unlike pre-patch, i was reaching 0.23 speed values with bow, now i can't

attack speed in char info screen != damage of skills.

The attack speed cap (2 hits per second per weapon) does not mean, that you does not do more damage with more attack speed buffs with skills. Otherwise you would do less less less damage as rogue than pre patch.

there is source code of chapter 6 runes of magic in a forum that i don't want to share name here, i would suggest you to download it and read physical damage output formula or just do simple tests like i did years ago.

just fyi, there is no other "hidden" attack speed value that breaches the cap

Quote from espar91

Quote from xLutinex

attack speed in char info screen != damage of skills.

The attack speed cap (2 hits per second per weapon) does not mean, that you does not do more damage with more attack speed buffs with skills. Otherwise you would do less less less damage as rogue than pre patch.

there is source code of chapter 6 runes of magic in a forum that i don't want to share name here, i would suggest you to download it and read physical damage output formula or just do simple tests like i did years ago.

just fyi, there is no other "hidden" attack speed value that breaches the cap

What Rev is saying is fairly easy to test - I suggest others test it as well and see; reason is simple - if what Rev saying is correct, then weapon selection for scouts may need to be reconsidered in terms of burst versus sustained; btw I myself don't have scout gear to try, so I honestly don't know answer and would personally appreciate more ppl testing it out

Thanks!

Firstly, thank you for shaking up the meta, it's refreshing to see different class combinations for once! Just my two cents below.

I think you have done a good job in balancing out the DPS classes for the most part. However I do believe mages are a a bit too strong in their burst phase, but then are a little too weak in their sustain phase. I think a good remedy to this would be bring the raw dmg down to bring their burst in line with R/WL, Champ and Warden are now and add an increase to their cast speed to assist with their sustain phase.

I am enjoying the rogue changes so far, it's nice to have a few variations to play, however R/Wl is a good amount stronger than R/S and R/K (as expected of R/K) similarly to how R/M was over other variations before. I think buffing R/S a little more would be a nice idea to have the choice of either R/S or R/Wl for serious dps. The buffs to R/K have been good and has made it a viable tank / offtank in lower inis, I tested this out in Tikal and didn't have many problems tanking the instance.

Regards,

I removed some posts that were off-topic and simply personal attacks against each other.

Please keep your replies in line with what this thread is actually about, so Devs can get useful feedback without having to scroll through those personal attacks.

Quote from espar91

Quote from xLutinex

attack speed in char info screen != damage of skills.

The attack speed cap (2 hits per second per weapon) does not mean, that you does not do more damage with more attack speed buffs with skills. Otherwise you would do less less less damage as rogue than pre patch.

there is source code of chapter 6 runes of magic in a forum that i don't want to share name here, i would suggest you to download it and read physical damage output formula or just do simple tests like i did years ago.

just fyi, there is no other "hidden" attack speed value that breaches the cap

Yes sorry, you are right and ty. It was fixed with the balancing patch. This will make all bows useless btw and should be changed to xbows from support in my opinion because with lute and warlock/mage, i am at 0.53 attack speed. So any further attackspeed will not effect anything.

Any official statement to useless weapons now?

Edit:

As Scout/Rogue, following buffs are useless or partially useless (attack speed bonus)

Elven Agility Flask

Strong Stimulant

Fire Training

Regal Cry

Hunter stance

Arrow of Essence

Body Vitalization

Mechanic Gamble (neurol crysis)

and many more I forgot

Well, I guess this explains why scouts deal less dmg than before, especially compared to other classes, doesn't it?

And I believe how good you play your class does not even matter, since its just a matter of dmg-calculation.

Hello,

in relation to this

Patch 10.2.1.1000 - Masked Festival, Class Balance feedback

I would ask, whether the attack speed of the bow will be increased or all player can change their bow for xbow now, because the bow is useless now and nearly unbuffed at attack speed cap

Kind regards

Credit to Serenadae - he pointed out how the speed cap likely makes 2h sword less optimal for wd/s and they need to use 2h axe versus other wds where 2h sword still better - since I don't think it would be fair to ask wd/s to make a separate weapon just for that combo, I think this needs to be addressed. Perhaps by making 2h axe and 2h sword similar/identical - not sure what is the best way but since some ppl made 2h swords already that needs to be taken into account.

just to agree with people here who thinks scout with bow is too weak, wanted to share my experience with s/[email protected] patk t15 bow;

it sucks