Warden Class [Feedback]

    Hi tank community,


    what does other tanks think about this change?


    • Reduced Protection of Nature HP share to 4% from 8%.

    Compared to Knights threaten + new Grace of Life, it seems that the 4% is too low.


    We tested yesterday in orkham and a dps closely survived the electrocute hit from mobs. With a knight tank, they also survive a hit. Now with the nerf to 4%, you literally die again with warden tank (yes, you can interrupt, but it is for testing purpose).


    I know it is hard to balance and 8% + threaten from knight dps would be insane. Hence my suggestion:


    • Increase ratio back to 8% and change it to be only share if spirit of the oak is summoned
    • Change knight threaten for dps knight classes, that it does not reduce attack power of enemies
    • Change w/p debuff that it does not apply any debuff on enemies, if you have a warden or champ tank (with Warrior, warlock and rogue tank it is still usefull)

    Greetings

    Then just interrupt electrocute hit. Warden is not equal knight class, why do you think, that dps must be survive after cast with warden tank in party? Warden have overpowered stuns, use it and all will be okay. 4% its okay now, i think. Developers said me: "Warden is designed to be stun tank". Let it stay that way.

    That is why I thought about exclusive functions from threaten, champ def and warden HP





    You just read "for testing purpose"?

    And you should know, that you cannot interrupt everything. Some skills just cannot be interrupted and instants btw cannot be by design.

    Don't be so ignorant in purpose of making tank classes equal for the raid. Stuns doesnt help you, if targets cannot be stunned or interrupted:)

    • Official Post

    Greetings,


    We generally categorize types of defense into reactive and preventative defense.


    Wardens, by far, have the strongest reactive defense in the game; however, the current endgame instances do not lean very well to reactive defense. Much of the damage affecting the party outside of the tank can't be played against with a stun or general interrupt. In order for Wardens to ever be viable as a main tank in any of the current endgame instances, they therefore had to be given a strong enough form of preventative defense.

    In addition, Grace of Life is now much stronger on tanks than it was before, allowing parties to double dip when both sources of the buff are properly equipped. As stated earlier, we will monitor this closely.


    The combination of Threaten and Traces of the Cross Sword reduce the parties damage taken by roughly 65%. We aim to achieve similar numbers for Champions and Wardens. We do not want tanking to come down to a numbers game, but rather offer unique effects from each class to distinguish them; while it should be possible to conquer the vast majority on the game with just one class(combination) on this role, we aim to have substantial performance differences in instances between them.

    This can be seen to it's fullest in Ruins of the Ice Dwarf Kingdom, where a Knight/Champion can easily cut down run times by 40% on the average run by itself. While it is no longer an endgame instance, this was already the case on release. We've seen similar trends in other instances. Wardens were drastically underperforming in both Grafu and Orkham.


    Generally, we'd also rather overpower than underpower with changes on tanks, as it's better for the player base to have a class that is too strong for a week than one that can't be played at all. Unlike with DPS classes, overpowered classes tend not to affect raid speed significantly either. However, we obviously we aim for a balanced environment in the end.


    Hooroo,

    Brontes.

    A pure "stun tank" is not viable in endcontent. There simply are too many damage sources for the group that cannot be avoided by interrupting. Tanks need to bring reliable damage mitigation in some form to the table.
    The only way of providing "preventative defense", as Brontes put it, via stuns would be some form of permastun. I'm very glad they stay away from such boring design choices.

    Regarding Warden/Warrior.

    The class has way to many buffs to be played comfortably. This observation mainly comes from a dps point of view, however I've been told by our tank that they face the same issue.

    I suggest modifying Berserk via one of the elite skills to be a toglle skill without duration. The rage cost should be removed too, so tanks can easily toggle it whenever they want.

    Hello

    Regarding Wd/s.

    What I mean is that every time we change zones or enter dungeons the skill from the centaur (Valiant Shot) ‘resets’, that is, its auto-attack is disabled. Therefore, I propose that when we activate this skill in autoattack mode, any zone change should not affect its deactivation. Furthermore, it would be necessary to solve this problem on the rest of the warden's class combinations.

    In general, there are regular problems with the centaur. If you start hitting, and the centaur was standing far away and started shooting from there, you don't get a buff on attack speed. He also regularly provokes mobs that shouldn't have been touched. It would be great to improve the management of such pets in general, not just the centaur.

    Hi, from my experience I don't have such problem with buffing from chiron. He always come to melee with me even if I start hiting in range. The only occasion on which he don't follow me is when my first target is not dead and I go to an other one away from the first. The pet just stay to the first one until the target dies and comeback to me. In this occasion yes he don't buff me because I'm too far away from him. Maybe describe me a place and occasion on which it happens so I can try it.


    For the aggro on mobs, by deactivating the skill ctrl+4 from the pet skill bar (the shield one) I don't have aggro problems or it's really rare. The only aggro problem I can have is when I move a bit close to a boss or a mob, the pet walk in front of me and aggro it.


    One thing I found out is when I want to make the pet stop attacking the ctrl+1 skill is not enough to stop it, I need to press both ctrl+1 and ctrl+2 to stop it, I think it would be nice to change it by just ctrl+1 to stop everything.


    Gyazo
    gyazo.com


    Greetings !

    Regarding Warden/Warlock.

    Unfortunately this class is currently underperforming greatly - even with weapon swapping (attackspeed 2h axe for AoE, patk 2h sword for single target).

    First off, it's not worth to use Phantom Cleave (ID: 1490534) and Noxious Slash (ID: 1490533) at all. You are better off just using Poisoned Chop for single target (ID: 1490529), since it causes your pet to use Shadow Chop. Conversly for AoE, wasting a gcd is not feasible. Hence I suggest the following:

    1. Remove Poisoned Chop gcd
    2. Change Phantom Cleave to proc Shadow Chop too

    Moreover, please consider raising the physical damage increment of Phantom Contract (ID: 1490536) from 20% to 30%.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Gopstop

    In general, there are regular problems with the centaur. If you start hitting, and the centaur was standing far away and started shooting from there, you don't get a buff on attack speed. He also regularly provokes mobs that shouldn't have been touched. It would be great to improve the management of such pets in general, not just the centaur.

    This issue may happen when you spam centaur skill manually or with a macro instead of letting it be used with auto-use function. For other occasions, we will remove keep-range block of centaur and allow it to more consistently inflict white attacks to see if fixes the issue.


    Greetings

    Quote from Byte
    Quote from Gopstop

    In general, there are regular problems with the centaur. If you start hitting, and the centaur was standing far away and started shooting from there, you don't get a buff on attack speed. He also regularly provokes mobs that shouldn't have been touched. It would be great to improve the management of such pets in general, not just the centaur.

    This issue may happen when you spam centaur skill manually or with a macro instead of letting it be used with auto-use function. For other occasions, we will remove keep-range block of centaur and allow it to more consistently inflict white attacks to see if fixes the issue.


    Greetings

    Yes, im using his attack with macro spam, maybe this is wrong. By "auto-use function" u mean Counterattack skill? I can try it, but this skill have problems with mobs aggro. Solution to this problem would be to reduce the attack range so that the centaur can hit only in melee, or so that Ghost Whistle buff is given to player no matter how far away the centaur is. Anyway, thanks for your answer)

    Quote from Gopstop
    Quote from Byte

    This issue may happen when you spam centaur skill manually or with a macro instead of letting it be used with auto-use function. For other occasions, we will remove keep-range block of centaur and allow it to more consistently inflict white attacks to see if fixes the issue.


    Greetings

    Yes, im using his attack with macro spam, maybe this is wrong. By "auto-use function" u mean Counterattack skill? I can try it, but this skill have problems with mobs aggro. Solution to this problem would be to reduce the attack range so that the centaur can hit only in melee, or so that Ghost Whistle buff is given to player no matter how far away the centaur is. Anyway, thanks for your answer)

    Some spells can be executed automatically, once you have target, like Autoshot etc. Same with pet spells, some of them can be running automatically, so you don’t need to spam them

    Regarding Warden/Warlock.

    Nice buff for the class in last patch, but using Phantom Cleave when Noxious Slash in a cooldown works clumsily, sometimes i just cant use Phantom Cleave when Noxious Slash in a cooldown.

    • New

    Since I've recently complained about the lack of changes to chain classes, I decided to give extensive feedback (and my recommendations) on all (physical) Warden classes.


    First off, on the general issues.


    Pet scaling:

    Currently you need multiple weapons in order to be a viable dps. This is absolutely mandatory, if not this class that's already on the weaker side is not viable. Let me elaborate. Pets, which are the major part of Wardens single target dmg, scale with the players physical attack like crazy - not only do they gain more patk themselves, they also gain some physical damage out of it. This forces you to use patk rolls on your weapons and switch to patk food for single target, even on a class like Warden/Warlock, where the patk scaling of the pet was already reduced in favor of more pdmg scaling. The difference is astronomical, its absolutely mandatory.

    That being said, in most instances AoE damage takes up a large portion of your overall damage. For those situations you need a weapon with attack speed roll. Since the speedcap of 0.5 can't be reached otherwise, the difference is enormous as well. In conclusion, if you just have a single weapon, you can choose between bad single target or bad AoE damage - especially devastating for new players and the main reason imho why few people are playing Warden.


    There is one Warden class combination that's the exception from this. Warden/Scout. This class performs very well with just 2x % pdmg roll weapons, because Chiron almost exclusively scales with pdmg. Of course other Wardens would still benefit from an attack speed weapon, because you will be still unable to reach the speed cap (and they don't use ranged skills). But the difference would be much smaller, due to the interaction of % pdmg increments when used together.

    So please, give all Warden pets the Chiron treatment - reduce their patk and increase their pdmg scaling drastically. In turn, perhaps Explosion of Power (ID: 493403) has to be changed to increase pdmg instead of patk - depends on the patk value pets end up with.


    Charged Chop vs. Power of the Wood Spirit:

    Another issue most Wardens face, is the question wether to use Power of the Wood Spirit in smaller pulls, or keep spamming Charged Chop - because the latter causes your Oak Walker to use Sepal Stab. Since the pets do so much of your overall dps, it's best to keep spamming Charged Chop in many situations. This shouldn't be the case, as it boring and counterintuitive.

    I suggest to change Power of the Wood Spirit to trigger a Sepal Stab on the first target hit as well.


    Warden/Scout:

    The uncontested number one among Wardens (which is not hard to achieve though). It has strong buffs with short cooldowns and doesn't rely on it's pet as much in terms of raw damage. In the current meta it doesn't need any changes pertaining to its damage output. On thing comes to mind though.

    • Change Heart of the Oak (ID: 491668) to not be consumed by Blood Arrow damage - currently this skill is pretty much useless on this class.


    Warden/Rogue:

    One of the stronger Wardens, although far away from Warden/Scout. It is quite slow in AoE situations, since you first have to use a gcd on Animal Spirit's Eclipse for the attack speed buff, then Achilles' Heel Strike for the pdmg buff. I suggest the following.

    • Remove the % pdmg buff from Achilles' Heel Strike (ID: 494007) and increase Power Sigil (ID: 499894) pdmg increment from 20% to 30%. This way the class would save a gcd, which makes a big difference, especially in fast groups. The buff from Achilles' Heel Strike can currently be maintained permanently anyway.
    • Increase Together (ID: 494615) pdmg increment from 10% to 20% for a general damage buff.
    • Change Force Fountain (ID: 499896) to increase Strength by 30% additionally and remove the strength increment from Heart of the Oak (ID: 499897). This serves a twofold purpose. First off, having to use your Heart of the Oak on cooldown prevents it from being used situationally. In addition, increasing the strength increment from 21.9% to 30% is a small but necessary damage boost.


    Warden/Warlock:

    Even after the recent changes, this class still underperforms greatly. Mainly because it is so slow. Which is a shame, since the class design is really cool, my personal favorite among Wardens. You first have to use a gcd on Animal Spirit's Eclipse for the attack speed buff, then use Noxious Slash and finally Phantom Cleave, which has become the main source of AoE damage. I suggest the following changes.

    • Remove Noxious Slash (ID: 1490533) gcd. This way the class wouldn't be as slow anymore.
    • Increase Phantom Contract (ID: 1490536) pdmg increment from 25% to 30% for a general damage boost.

    Warden/Warrior:

    This class is both a dps and a tank, which has to be kept in mind when approaching changes. This class underperforms as most warden do, but especially suffered under the cooldwon system changes, since you have to use and manage a lot of cooldowns. I suggest the following changes.

    • Change Will Attack (ID: 494610) to make Berserk (ID: 490095) toggleable and remove the Rage cost, so tanks can comfortably adjust to the situation. This would be a much needed general buff to the class, while also reducing the amount of cooldowns.
    • Add 10% increased physical damage to Coat of Arms (ID: 494611) for another buff.
    • Add 40% increased Rage buildup to Resilience of Life (ID: 494354) to ease the struggle for Rage the class currently experiences.

    Warden/Bard:

    This class suffered greatly from the cd increase on Sonic Chop and is underperforming currently. Definetly among the weaker Wardens. I suggest the following.

    • Change Chants of the Forest (ID: 1491270) to increase physical attack and physical damage by 6% each, instead of physical defense (which is next to useless for a dps).
    • Change Elemental Aquisition (ID: 1491272) to modify Charged Chop (ID: 493395) damage type to physical wind damage additionally, for a little single target damage boost.
    • Change Singer of the Forest (ID: 1491273) to always trigger the buff, if not on cooldown. You already got rid of other random triggers in the game and that's a good thing for consistency.
    • Change Resonance (ID: 1491275) to instead modify Sonic Chop (ID: 1491274) cd to dynamically change with your attackspeed. Currently the classes' AoE suffers from the 3 seconds cd. This way AoE burst gets a substantial buff, whereas sustain remains unaffected. And again, another randomized proc is removed through the change of the original passive.

    Warden/Mage:

    Wd/M suffers from several issues. First off, cohesion. The class is all over the place - it uses both Nature Crystal and Oak Walker, which forces you to switch between those two pets for single target and AoE. Thus you need to buff patk food for your Oakwalker after every summon, switch back to pdmg food and vice versa. I recommend changing the class to fully lean into not being reliant on a pet. There are enough Wardens that already do that.

    Moreover, this class combination is incredibly boring, since it only spams Charged Chop and Wind Chop for the majority of time. I suggest the following rework to make the class feel unique and interesting:

    • Rename Nature's Link (ID: 498205) to Crystalline Sacrifice: "Sacrifice your Nature Crystal to transform into a Crystalline Knight. Increases Attack Speed and Physical Damage by 35%, but prevents you from summoning a pet." Toggleable, no duration and requires Nature Crystal summoned to be used (which is then removed). Why this change? Currently the aura provided by Nature Crystal falls off from time to time or doesn't refresh, which is devastating for dps output. Use the following model for the transformation effect: Water Spirit Guardian (ID: 163030). The size needs to be reduced of course.

    • Rename Resonation of Wind (ID: 499893) to Crystalline Resonation: "While affected by Crystalline Sacrifice, your attacks inflict an additional 150% mainhand weapon damage physical slash damage."
    • Rename Wind Chop (ID: 499895) to Crystalline Chop: "Slash at your enemy with a crystalline shard. Inflicts 650% mainhand weapon physical slash damage twice." Add 0.5 seconds channel time and 3 seconds cd.
    • Rename Crystal Protection (ID: 498219) to Crystal Burst: "Crystal shards burst forth from your weapon, dealing 500% mainhand weapon dps physical slash damage to targets in a fan-shaped area in front of you. Requires Crystalline Sacrifice to be active." 3 seconds cd.
    • Rename Oak Blessing (ID: 494011) to Crystalline Blessing: 15 minute buff that increases patk by 5% and heals you by 1% hp every 3 seconds. Same as with Wd/R, Heart of the Oak should remain a situational, defensive cooldown.
    • Change Explosion of Power (ID: 499892) to only increase your patk and attack speed by 12%, remove pet requirement.
    • Rename Tough Oak (ID: 494207) to Shimmering Skin: Reduces your AoE damage taken by 15%.
    • Rename Narrow Escape (ID: 494616) to Crystalline Thrust: "Jab at your opponent with a sharp piece of crystal, inflicting 650% mainhand weapon physical thrust damage." No cd -> serves as a spammable when all other skills are on cd.
    • Rename Spiritual Feedback (ID: 498227) to Refraction: "Increases your physical damage by 5% and increases your movement speed by 7%." This makes up for the loss of passive movement speed provided by Nature Crystal while also removing the pet buff part.