Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

    yea because people like to share their knowladge...

    how much is it to get secret of w/d dmg? 15k dias or more?

    noone want to share their macros/kitties with others even inside guilds and u wrote me to ask someone...

    if u are so altruist to tell me to ask someone, why u dont help me, u know chempion...


    yea there are hidden mechanics that are known by a few, and normal players do not know these mechanics so they play the best they can but will never go closer to these few... this is next problem...

    question is how to balance this if there is any possibility to balance it...


    ps: i told my kitty for m/wl for my friend in guild and he posted it on channel and u know what? i was bullied by some because my kitty was crap for them, but u think, they told wat was wrong or how to improve? of course no

    Quote from Boing

    yea because people like to share their knowladge...

    how much is it to get secret of w/d dmg? 15k dias or more?

    noone want to share their macros/kitties with others even inside guilds and u wrote me to ask someone...

    if u are so altruist to tell me to ask someone, why u dont help me, u know chempion...

    .....

    Wait!!!!! Asking someone about a class is something completely different from getting some macros/luas.

    You NEED to understand your class and not brainafk click 1 macro.


    Furthermore why should someone, who invested weeks to create a lua, should give others it for free? Imagine you give your lua to 30 ppl -> 1 class balance patch and several classes need adjustments in your lua. 30 ppl complaining you, bcs it does not work anymore. A Nightmare


    Go learn to understand your class and then you can use kitty combo and make a rotation for your playstyle, not for others

    Quote from Boing

    after 3rd time i decided i will not play chemp on rofl...

    i decided as w/p i can do this 60% on jerath event so why i need to go chemp

    I think i ran like 20 times rofl on s/wd back then until my dmg started too look better, 3 times is nothing if u want to learn and understand how ur class does dmg, even now after idk how man runs on dps im still learning how to do more dmg and i am not close to the very good players dps. But if u give up after 3 times u won't come far on dps.

    because everyone is proggramer in lua and know how to do it :P

    like i wrote:

    Quote from Boing

    yea there are hidden mechanics that are known by a few, and normal players do not know these mechanics so they play the best they can but will never go closer to these few... this is next problem...

    question is how to balance this if there is any possibility to balance it...

    there is no possibility to balance it if u dont know tricks in lua, i know exactly what i want to achive but i dont know how to do it by lua... and i dont have lots of money to hire proggramer who will teach me how to do it...


    i dont complain that u dont want to give ur work for free, i complain that not everyone can achive it, so nerfing class overall because some can achive big results because they know how to do tricks in lua is not fair...


    please, listen this: "because 10 people on server do tons of dmg on this combination, we decided that all 100 players that play this class will do now only 50% of this dmg, (so other 90 players that cannot achive this tons of dmg and was doing only 30% of top 10 players dmg now will do even less)"


    where is there logic? because i'm the best and do cosmic dmg, plz nerf this class, i dont care of others that like this class but cant achive my dmg... there is only me and my dmg, **** them, if they cant achive my dmg they should go play tetris...


    ps: i know noone told that, but for ur(ur means all who cry nerf nerf nerf not only one person) all cry nerf this nerf that we can read between lines that u mean exactly this


    ps2: and who the hell decided that r/ch need to be the highest dmg dealer and all above need to be nerrfed, maybe there is need to make stronger classes and according to that, make r/ch even more stronger to catch up with new stronger meta?

    Are you saying that class balancing is to be done for players who cannot play with them? I do not use lua and I do not see the need for a kitty. But a well-written kitty will not make anyone learn to play. You need to read your skills and understand how to use them. Only then can you write your own kitty that will suit your style of play. When I started my adventure on this server, I have never used a kitten before. But it is quite easy and you can learn it quickly with a few hints from others and you will be able to do it yourself. I think people in the guild will tell you what and how. I recommend that you sit a bit on your skills, go for mannequins and see what is best for your class, what combination of skills and it will pay off for sure.

    yea i read my skills and created kitty that do some dmg on w/p, even 60% on jerath event :P

    and my wl/ch do well if u take into account that it is wl/ch...

    p/w and d/w that have easy mechanics work for me perfectly, i tank with chemp very well etc but we miss the topic...


    there is still narration everywhere I I I:

    I know how to play

    I am the best

    MY DPS


    so if I'M THE BEST, **** others that dont know how to play


    ur post means exactly: others are nobs, dont know how to play, but me and my friends masters know how to play, we should decide what is good for game what is not... what should be nerfed what not...


    what happened to posts with buff something?? there was one last time about s/wl and wl/s, but know what?? it was covered by posts of experts that can only say nerf nerf nerf...


    when GM or DEV shows himself online in game there is lots of cry "nerf"


    if u think ur class is too strong, who ordered u to play this class??

    of others maybe it's not op, and want this class to remain the same


    why we need only nerfs?? or maybe u know only this word: "nerf"...


    now there are classes nerfed that dont even need nerf, why? because 80% of posts there are "nerf nerf nerf"

    you miss something. Balancing means nearly equal dmg for all classes and not 5 op breaking classes. Bcs If classes are broken op, ppl will only play these classes and then we are back to gorge times.


    And why nerf instead of Push: if you always push classes, you can solo dps everything soon without any supp in group and this will destroy group play, bcs ppl running with 4 ppl rofl instead of 10, if it's possible

    /w Kagamiko I will share my experience of playing on mwl, but I do not use kitty / lua, I press buttons with my fingers

    left or right hand?

    so why for all times there is only moving back??

    there is op class that push, but in next month it is pulled back so much that before changes was better...

    still there are all times 5 op breaking classes, but now is changin what class is in this top 5


    and again i will ask: who ordered you to play op broken classes??

    if i'm correct this is only game and noone force others to play specyfic classes that they dont want...

    or maybe someone force u to play this and this class? if yes, i suggest changing environment or contact someone for help...

    idk ur situation but if someone force u, u should do something with this

    everyone should play what they want


    i am for freedom, stop forcing people to play what they dont want!!!

    join me, togetger we will fight for freedom!!!

    Kagamiko is the best example that even without lua/kitty u can do insane dmg, if he plays a magical class focused on dps he destroys.

    In other games u see that balancing isnt done on lower level players it is done one the highest level because only there u can see how the game is balanced. If for example we start balancing for lower skilled players who might not have understood the game/class yet we end up in good players running duo instances because some classes will be insanely broken. Maybe everyone just should look at the Damage/Aggro/Healing of good players instead of looking at their own for comparison. If u want to become good on any class u will do, but as some Persons say "There is no Victory without a battle".

    Quote from Boing

    i like so much these "this class is to strong", "too much patt/matt" told by players (or by people looking on their dps) with t12/13 golden gear with XIII runes, t16/17 weapons and carts that give 20k patt/matt

    and when i hear chemp strong...

    me, chemp with my t10 golden gear with runes XI and t15 weapon on rofl doing 2/3 of r/ch DPS with similar gear...

    I have t11 golden gear and some my runes are still t10 yet I find myself pulling even/being slightly below a similarily geared r/ch. If you'd like you could show me your kitty/rota and I'd be happy to assist you in finding the right rotation for you. Perhaps you alos have the wrong titles in your title system (e.g. eagle eye is in most places superior to lord of lightning for ch) or you're buffing wrong. Champions are much more complex than warriors, after all.

    JockerIR but this, that u do duo instance is ur problem, not my...


    i play p/w without any kitty and it do dmg... 4 skills to use, 2 stage combo, so easy... but play this on champ :P


    new d/wl dont need kitty or lua too if u know how to count to 2 :P (this is why i started to do dmg) but again play w/d without lua :P


    of course u will not, because noone will do dmg on champ or w/d wiithout it, but it is easy to criticize others and finding errors in others...


    PS: Midan, i will catch u in game

    Nobody is forced to anything. But ppl play the classes with most effort for less Work.

    Because: I can ask you too, why are you not playing champ and learn it? Why are you not learning lua? Why are you not Reading skills and make hours of testing yourself?

    Before you want to critism others, look at yourself pls. Most ppl want a fair play, that is why this thread exists

    CoA without macros/lua/kitty/diyce(lua). … hummm!


    From the classes I know(played) only tanks and healers and probably some supports (which makes no sense a lua,etc) and d/wl (the only magical class i played). Have no experience at all with magical classes. Maybe there are more… but otherwise it is impossible to max dmg without the help of 3rd party.


    And for those who will say that is possible, think about how can u control buff/debuff timers.


    As an example;

    “Effect can’t be triggered after xx secs after buff end”


    On other hand, if kitty, lua, diyce, macros are legal in game, why not to use them? They really help a lot.


    “The one key braindead” will not give any player any joy or satisfaction.


    Personally i use kitty/lua for dmg rotations but all “utilities” manual, otherwise u just can’t do well. (Interrupts, etc)


    Its also funny when ppl talk about op players etc, if they are op is mainly for 2 reasons, invest time and money which is also a characteristic from the game. Time will give you understanding and knowledge, money will make that knowledge and understanding come thru.


    One needs the other only money or only time won’t do it. (Or you will need a lot of time, if even possible)


    Sometimes I ask for help on rotations, but I don’t expect for anyone to give me a kitty. Usually when i ask for help with rotation I actually show mine first and ask for some pointers.

    So far all have helped me, but if I would as for someone’s lua, well I wouldn’t expect that that person would give it to me :)


    At the begging of class balancing I was a bit disappointed with “nerf” but I realised that actually was me that wasn’t playing the class as it should.

    If u use scrut, just look at other players from the same class u play and see if u are using the same skills.


    I ll give an example… as Scout i really thought that the iSS aoe sucked, 60sec cooldown … pfff who uses that!!! Well… I couldn’t be more wrong :)


    Greetings


    Zarg

    to Lutine:

    maybe i still play chemp but not as dps?

    i'm still learning chemp, but now i play champ the most as tank... i wrote this...

    or to farm elements for aoth on dn :P

    if there is need on rofl party to play w/p i go play what is needed (or p/w because we lack priest in party)...

    for me this is more fun than play on chemp where i cant do any decant dmg when i tried for half of year to do some dmg, and when it was finaly ok there was nerf nerf nerf for chemp and problem appears again...

    somethime u have enought of nerfs... somethimes u want to hear that ur class gain buff... not only nerfs like chemp...


    u treat me like some nub that started game and think everything is for him and everyone should help him because he want this...


    i remind u that i played chemp before class balance and noone was helping me... and i still play chemp, but now not as dps... i know what to do, but when i do this on chemp there are lacking numbers...

    Understand that the ch and wl classes are difficult classes not only to execute, but also to understand. And I guarantee you, once you understand the mechanics, you can do decent damage.


    You also need a common understanding and answers to questions:

    -Which class is better in the fast / slow runs?

    -What food to use in this raid setup?

    -Which support group comes with me (good performers or not)

    Quote from xLutinex

    you miss something. Balancing means nearly equal dmg for all classes and not 5 op breaking classes. Bcs If classes are broken op, ppl will only play these classes and then we are back to gorge times.

    The one-dimensional aspect, named damage, you propose being the axis with which balance is measured around leads to a variety of issues down the line:


    1) How even do you measure damage on a broad, server wide scale? Damage is dependent on many conditions - gear, cards, cenedrils, ping, critluck, supports... This variable is incredibly unstable.


    2) If damage is the only metric, how do support-capabilities fare into this? r/ch is arguably one of the stronger classes while also bringing quite the hefty buff to the party.


    3) What about tankiness? Take HOTO for example: Champions are practicaly unable to die in there, thanks to their three defensive setskills and generally high defense even in demolishion-mode. Should they get nerfed over this?


    4) What about difficulty of play? Again, some classes are much easier than others - why would anyone play a harder class without getting any benefit out of it?


    Answer: Balancing is not just about creating equal damage for all classes, as then the meta will simply shift into more support-focussed folds. If those are evened out, players will gravitate towards the easier classes, as they are much more consistent to play. If that gets evened out, players will go for the safest classes.


    Balancing could therefore be described as a plane on a graph; The axis have barriers to entry at which point a class will be viable for that role. The axis are damage, tankiness, utility and difficulty. The Integral of this function describes the class strength; the barrier to entry describe the roles a class can fill. If one attribute at one class spikes out too much in comparison to others, this class will be the new meta - no questions there.


    This is a very mathematical view on the whole balancing debate, but the pure chase for damage has left meta classes to be uninspired, bland and basically the same. Boring. They are boring. Perhaps this is why many endgame players find the game a bit lackluster these days. Most classes play the same and you just choose the strongest class to run. Heck, even the warden, one of the most unique classes in concept has become bland as all hell, as now literally anyone and their grandma can run around with a pet.


    Quote from xLutinex

    And why nerf instead of Push: if you always push classes, you can solo dps everything soon without any supp in group and this will destroy group play, bcs ppl running with 4 ppl rofl instead of 10, if it's possible

    Pretty much this. Nerfs are important, though buffing feels much better to the player.

    To be perfectly candid, I think the methodology used to go about balancing wasn't/isn't the best in many ways; The frequency of balance changes is too low and the impact of these changes is too high. Slowly buffing/nerfing classes that need it, basically microadjusting them into the position they need to be is in my opinion a much better (although more time consuming) approach.

    Quote from Boing

    i play p/w without any kitty and it do dmg... 4 skills to use, 2 stage combo, so easy... but play this on champ :P

    Nobody force you to play champ. If you like p/w and think its easy/good, play it. But your argument is SO EASY because just 4 skills to use and champ a lot more so its not easy?


    Its not for me to judge myself, but I can tell I'm better and feel more comfortable playing warlock/m than f.e. dps classes.

    My all dps's have kitty, better or worse, and my warlock has only 3 skills in kitty - those for PSI.

    The others, if I count correctly - 13 - I click manually w/o kitty. And I prefer that way, than kitty way.


    But thats thanks to YEARS of experience playing this buff class. I adapt to the situation on the instance, I know where and when use selected skill, when go full dps support, when use more shields/stuns etc. And I laughed to ppl who go wrl and can't even use one single Warp Charge skill. This should be banable.


    Same as those who go 2, 3 times a selected class and immediately cry on the forum because they do not make same dps as others with the same gear...

    Leszix, First of His Name, the Notbanned, King of the Memes and the Gifs

    Love 5

    Every game I have played, the gaming company nerfed stuff. I absolutely hate that. You buy/earn and work your rear off to get better, just to get nerfed. Every game, nobody and I mean nobody is happy getting nerfed.


    Yet this game, all kinds of people are wanting others to get nerfed. It makes no sense.


    To me this is just crying. Waaa my character isn't as strong as someone else's. Waaa I don't have the strongest character in the game. Waaa. Please nerf everyone else to make me feel better. Waaaa.


    I fully admit that there's a lot of details to this topic but no game is going to be totally fair. Especially with people using multiple accounts and others using bot accounts. Then there's hackers.


    Also, in this type of game each character is going to have strengths and weaknesses. Some characters are just going to be stronger than others. Fighters will always do lots of damage and have great health. Mages will always do tons of damage but can die easily. Priests can heal but can't do tons of damage.


    Find a character that fits your play style and stop worrying about others. If your character isn't the strongest, then make it stronger or play the character type you think is the strongest. If you're a scout then be the best scout you can be. Try for being the best scout in the game. Forget about everyone else. So what if someone else does more damage than you. So what if someone can heal more damage than you.

    In this thread, it's not about changing the roles of the classes and making DPS lessons only about Balance DPS or heals. Most of the players talk about which class needs to be strengthened and which one needs to be weakened. If someone does not understand this, he should not comment here. And in this class balancing the idea is to be able to play each one and enjoy the game on your favorite combination without weakening your team. Players who don't care about the best instances won't get it. When going to a new, theoretically most difficult instance, you need to have the strongest team possible, and not everyone wants to be forced to play only one or the other given beating or healing class only because it is stronger, the point is that all of them should be fairly equal and then everyone can enjoy the game. It is known that the beating class will not heal, and vice versa. It's time to finally figure it out.

    *just throws some cents into the thread*


    Wait, are we playing on the same server? Why would you think, that wlWd is op? Not even mentioning the other classes listed here.

    Quote from Madox

    I think this class need a nerf? Yes. A nerf to overall dmg? Not much. Depends what meta you are considering. Is better than warlocks but on point with some mages, for example. The biggest dmg of the class is BY FAR in organs. That require a 25-30% nerf for sure.

    Well, if I remember correctly, the scrutinizer bar of my d/wl was 15% in front of the second one listed. The class was even able to compete with scouts in Balton burst and in the trash sections... well... Sandstorm is your friend I guess. Feels like Sandstorm hits much faster than any warrior or champ does. So either the d/wl in entirely busted or all my other dps guild members can't play their classes. I would say, the first one makes more sense... :/

    Quote from Boing

    i like so much these "this class is to strong", "too much patt/matt" told by players (or by people looking on their dps) with t12/13 golden gear with XIII runes, t16/17 weapons and carts that give 20k patt/matt

    Me: *Complaining about certain classes being too strong*

    Also me: *Wearing a t11 mage gear with t15 weapon and t12 runes, which is almost average*

    Quote from Boing

    ps: does anyone know if it is possible to bind gas and brake pedals to action bar?

    Yes, it's possible. Years ago I played with an xbox controller. You just had to bind the original keyboard keys to your controller with a certain software tool. In Win7 there was even a setting to do so, but I can't remember, it's been a long time... But look for a solution, you will find one for sure. You may bind the W key to gas pedal and S to brake, then you can drive through the world on your horse on the most immersive way.

    PS: as far as I remember, mouse clicks were the most difficult to bind to a controller key. But just for pedals, you're good to go I guess. :thumbup:

    wl/wd is maybe the best class what you can play atm. ppl do bossevent complete solo with it. you can also do a lot of other inis with it solo. is it enough what i should say about that ? also the dmg in rofl is one of the best.