Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

    Frankly, tanking is pretty unpleasant on this server. The plate classes kind of all play the same: activate aggro buff, run in, aoe, repeat. For bosses it's activate aggro buff, run in, hit stuff, repeat.


    Knights suffer from this the most. Plate gear is strikingly indiverse. They're tank only. The classes basically play all the same, apart from maybe one exception, that being the kn/wd, due to weapon swapping.

    Plate gear isn't worth much for that reason. You have 0 damage potential and all you have is aggro-multipliers - which, in a world where DPS get more and more options to deal damage tanks are left behind and struggle for aggro at times unless you're overgeared to all hell. The solution: Just play chain (or right now also cloth), have a 400-500k dps with a slightly lower aggro multi.


    To remedy this, there's need for certain things to happen:

    1. Diversify the plate classes. Make them play completely differently from one another and give them differing functionalities. One should be offensively oriented, one should be supporty, one should be extremely defensively and so on.
      Who the hell plays wd/k? wd/ch? k/s? k/p? k/w? Why would you play classesthat do literally the same as the k/m in their functionality but so much worse?
    2. Give plate some non-tanks, please? Healers can swap in lower instances to dps and are primo supports, mages can swap to a heal and a tank now (cause that's fun) and chain is flick of the wrist tanking with champs. Its time the scale will be tipped again, giving plate gear some viable DPS (that actually wears plate!) to create some more viability.
      Just turn some of the useless tanks right now into actual damage classes, hell, even turn the kn/m into a mDPS if needed.
      Versatility becomes immensely important in the midgame and doesn't stop being important in the late/endgame. Plate can not hold a candle to it.
    3. Make (more) buffs raid wide. Lower geared tanks (and for that matter, I mean tanks with "just" red rofl gear) can barely hold aggro during dps burst, even then they themselves "burst". How again are 50-60k dps plate tanks supposed to gold the aggro of 35kk+ DPS at bosses? It's by all means literally impossible. Chaining taunts and praying that the DPS can stand a hit or two? This can't be the intended way to play tank when one starts out, right? The learning curve is steep, yet the mastery curve is really flat. Doesn't make much sense.
      Excluding the second group and by proxy always the tank isn't fun for anybody and doesn't make any sense at all in a world where group switching macros and addons exist - especially when you consider that the competitive nature of buffs in the first party cripples the viability of some otherwise pretty nice classes (looking at the warden and his nature crystal specifically for this.)


    Something has to be done.

    Quote from MidanLauert
    1. Lower geared tanks (and for that matter, I mean tanks with "just" red rofl gear) can barely hold aggro during dps burst, even then they themselves "burst". How again are 50-60k dps plate tanks supposed to gold the aggro of 35kk+ DPS at bosses? It's by all means literally impossible.

    Apparently i am a lower geared tank with my t10 statted red gear, Aoth accesoire set and only t12 sword, but I can't understand in any way that you can't hold aggro against very strong dps classes. This is absolutely not true and I personally see the difference to our Gold gear tanks. More aggro, less damage, movement speed etc. makes tanking much more pleasant and is a great help, for example, with the last boss in Rofl with many stacks or with the world boss. So I personally think that's absolutely worth it to have gold gear. You may not do Damage as a plate tank, but still has a Threaten which can reduce attack by 59% of your target with all Knight classes, which is very valuable. This has no other "dmg tank class". In particular, I would like to say that with new content plate tanks are needed and find such changes in no case useful. It was often written in the thread that if a tank can not hold the Aggro, he should rethink his playing style or switch to a "more aggro tank class" (like K/R e.g.).


    Greetings Ryzek

    Quote from Ryzek

    This is absolutely not true

    I think, he means the situations at certain burst bosses, like Balton or some Hoto bosses, where a specific well balanced ranged dps class is almost dividing the boss hp by half within a (felt) global cooldown, letting the tank no other possibility than to taunt the boss for holding that aggro. And if half of your dps play such classes, a red geared tank might struggle there. But that's reasonable imo.

    But I agree to Midan, tanking in this game is just always the same. Some call it difficult, some call it easy, we call it boring. Doesn't matter which knight combo you play, there is maybe 1 or 2 skills changing in your basic rotation, maybe you got a bit of utility, maybe another defensive cooldown for emergency, but that's it. That's why I like the other classes' tank combos, such as Warrior/Knight, Warden/Knight, Warlock/Warden, etc. They are played entirely different, which is awesome. But in terms of diversity, the knight class is just bad, there IS NO diversity at all.


    I remember the days where a knight had to handle additional sigils for getting back some mana and such, but nowadays most tanks just play with kitty on all knight subclasses and it WORKS. And it does work, because you can play them all the same way, maybe a bit more than Midan wrote, but still: boring. How fortunate that rofl is such an exciting instance, so tanks are not bored at all 8o

    Quote from Zyrex
    Quote from Ryzek

    This is absolutely not true

    I think, he means the situations at certain burst bosses, like Balton or some Hoto bosses, where a specific well balanced ranged dps class is almost dividing the boss hp by half within a (felt) global cooldown, letting the tank no other possibility than to taunt the boss for holding that aggro. And if half of your dps play such classes, a red geared tank might struggle there. But that's reasonable imo.

    But I agree to Midan, tanking in this game is just always the same. Some call it difficult, some call it easy, we call it boring. Doesn't matter which knight combo you play, there is maybe 1 or 2 skills changing in your basic rotation, maybe you got a bit of utility, maybe another defensive cooldown for emergency, but that's it. That's why I like the other classes' tank combos, such as Warrior/Knight, Warden/Knight, Warlock/Warden, etc. They are played entirely different, which is awesome. But in terms of diversity, the knight class is just bad, there IS NO diversity at all.


    I remember the days where a knight had to handle additional sigils for getting back some mana and such, but nowadays most tanks just play with kitty on all knight subclasses and it WORKS. And it does work, because you can play them all the same way, maybe a bit more than Midan wrote, but still: boring. How fortunate that rofl is such an exciting instance, so tanks are not bored at all 8o

    tbh: I use up to 10 skills on k/M for example. it's not only "go in, aoe and brain-afk". Always, ALWAYS if a tank pulls a specific mob on the way to last boss in rofl and half group dies because of the AOE, I could kick the tank. The job of the tank is not only making aggro and getting low dmg, but also CC/interrupting deadly casts for the group. it is not only the job of dps/support to interrupt something. and if you do that as a tank, it is not so boring. Yes, you do anyway always the same -> making aggro, interrupting/CC.

    But tbh: What is a dps doing? Oo buffing -> 123457 clicks on the same kitty macro. wwooooowwww

    Play the tank without kitty pls and have fun with it.


    Greetings


    P.S. but one point should be said: dps gets buffed over and over again -> more dmg/aggro. Tanks (knights) doing same aggro like class balance started. just saying

    Quote from xLutinex

    The job of the tank is not only making aggro and getting low dmg, but also CC/interrupting deadly casts for the group. it is not only the job of dps/support to interrupt something. and if you do that as a tank, it is not so boring. Yes, you do anyway always the same -> making aggro, interrupting/CC.

    But tbh: What is a dps doing?

    Well, interrupting in a tab target game with cast bars isn't such a thing I guess. But yea, dps is just all the same too in some ways. Personally, I'm a manually tanking one, just got some small macros for like auto-tabbing + holy strike or such, but still... compared to other games, it just feels boring. Unfortunately switching the knight's subclass doesn't bring the intended effect for me, even if I press 10 different buttons with it. But I just got the solution for that: Not to play knight for long, but switch to other main classes every few weeks.


    But this entire thing is not about complaining about tank being too easy or too straight-forward, it's more that your subclass of knight doesn't really matter in terms of diversity. And the way "how" things are done, is always the same. Like Threaten, some aggro skills, holy strike fillers, continue... just playing with Threaten and AoEs only, is enough for most parts of certain instances - on any knight combination :rolleyes:


    Quote from xLutinex

    P.S. but one point should be said: dps gets buffed over and over again -> more dmg/aggro. Tanks (knights) doing same aggro like class balance started. just saying

    Maybe in 2023 tanks will get a piece of the cake called "balancing" :/

    Quote from Ryzek
    Quote from MidanLauert
    1. Lower geared tanks (and for that matter, I mean tanks with "just" red rofl gear) can barely hold aggro during dps burst, even then they themselves "burst". How again are 50-60k dps plate tanks supposed to gold the aggro of 35kk+ DPS at bosses? It's by all means literally impossible.

    Apparently i am a lower geared tank with my t10 statted red gear, Aoth accesoire set and only t12 sword, but I can't understand in any way that you can't hold aggro against very strong dps classes.

    You have:

    • A Maxed Pet
    • High Cenedrils
    • DPS in your Party you can fully rely on
    • Pretty decent cards
    • A ton of experience


    Especially the second part of the paraghaph should give away that I am talking about players at least not having a ton of experience. I am criticizing the way the skill floor and ceiling work. You either suck balls as a tank or you are fast and good. There is no in between. Tanking is hostile to people learning it. I can't make it much clearer. Yeah, ROFL is an endgame instance, but these issues are elevated in lower instances, too, by a lot.


    Quote from Ryzek

    So I personally think that's absolutely worth it to have gold gear. You may not do Damage as a plate tank, but still has a Threaten which can reduce attack by 59% of your target with all Knight classes, which is very valuable.

    Valuable to yourself as a knight. It still doesn't change the fact that knights, by large, all play the same - hell, even the k/wl and the k/wd, physical DPS, play largely the same. My point is that your aggro, by in large, isn't high enough if anything isn't sitting right.


    Quote from Ryzek

    This has no other "dmg tank class". In particular, I would like to say that with new content plate tanks are needed and find such changes in no case useful. It was often written in the thread that if a tank can not hold the Aggro, he should rethink his playing style or switch to a "more aggro tank class" (like K/R e.g.).

    Yeah, and I am not advocating against plate wearers being tanks, at all? What are you getting at? My point is to make plate more diverse, give them more options, as all the other gears have. The typical off-tank is missing, something that brings some (not much) damage to the table. Something that, as you describe, has much more aggro but doesn't have the utility other knights have. Something that makes learning tanking for newbies much easier.


    Some people do not have issues when they do anything cause their character play time counter reads enough for them to fully understand everything.

    Quote from xLutinex

    P.S. but one point should be said: dps gets buffed over and over again -> more dmg/aggro. Tanks (knights) doing same aggro like class balance started. just saying

    My entire point in one sentence. Thanks.
    If you've not "grown up with" it you won't get into it very well. Without getting into it you won't learn it. Catch 22. Talk to any new person trying to become a tank and they can tell you exactly that.

    Quote from MidanLauert
    Quote from xLutinex

    P.S. but one point should be said: dps gets buffed over and over again -> more dmg/aggro. Tanks (knights) doing same aggro like class balance started. just saying

    My entire point in one sentence. Thanks.
    If you've not "grown up with" it you won't get into it very well. Without getting into it you won't learn it. Catch 22. Talk to any new person trying to become a tank and they can tell you exactly that.

    I think that all people who play at a good level understand thoroughly, that's why they play at that level. And for new players, the whole principle of the game at the initial stage is to understand all the nuances

    Quote from Kagamiko
    Quote from MidanLauert

    My entire point in one sentence. Thanks.
    If you've not "grown up with" it you won't get into it very well. Without getting into it you won't learn it. Catch 22. Talk to any new person trying to become a tank and they can tell you exactly that.

    I think that all people who play at a good level understand thoroughly, that's why they play at that level. And for new players, the whole principle of the game at the initial stage is to understand all the nuances

    Exactly! I am not arguing against that in any way - I am arguing the facts that
    a) plate classes haven't gotten a piece of balancing for a loooooooooooooong time now

    b) general nerfs have affected tanks (disproportionally the newer ones) heavier than the DPS


    -> Frustration for anyone apart from the endgame <-


    I'm not here to advocate tanking being braindead/super easy. I'm advocating for finally balancing out plate gear and possibly giving newbies a switch to a safe, easy and clean tank that overall isn't as useful for the raid for those players to gain some experience with. It's the "5 years minimum experience in the field"-entry level job conundrum.


    These players cannot gain experience when they are not good enough to run instances while at the same time they won't get any better cause they cannot run instances -> they quit. We had a wave of german players coming form the other servers to CoA, many of them have left again because they couldn't get into the game. What a shame.

    *maybe offtop*
    Well if they leave bec they don't have guild/peaople to play with it's not the balance problem but only community being to harsh for newbies

    *not offtop*
    i have played some wd/ch tank, and it seems rlly funny for me (but not for my party dpss :P)
    Idea of Pet being aoe trash tank is quite nice, but it is soooo hard for him to keep this aggro if anyone is atacking his target to hard. Also fact that i can help him use his skill that is aoe aggro hit, doesn't help at all. would be rly nice if maybe one skill (elite 45 if i good remember? the one that gives player 75% aggro) would after use transfer my and one chosen by me player all aggro to the pet? i feel like Aggro lead from s/p do similar thing.


    Not sure if this would help, but class is rly interesting and i wish it would be more usefull :D

    hello everyone;

    I am writing about class balances for the first time here,yes, it's a good thing that every class is in balance

    but I see that, for example, warrior, every combination of classes is beautiful

    rogue likewise. scout each side class with nice dps

    and now here's what I want to ask:why is champ not well compatible with every side class

    champ maybe the AOE good for you but single dps are bad.

    champ/priest trash,champ/warior half tank not dps,champ/dudu is sup

    champ/mage nerfed not good balance

    champ/wlck and champ/scout dps but not like a same rogue or scout or mage


    we want the champion class to be balanced and reorganized again,champion players want to enjoy the game without having to play other classes


    have fun to everyone

    Ok, let's get one thing straight. Playing tank is boring because you only press 2 buttons as a tank.
    Point 1. If you only press 2 buttons as a tank (or skills) then you are definitely doing something wrong and then it's no wonder that you don't hold aggro.
    Point 2. What do rouges, scouts, champions, mages do. Do you feel the presses more? If you think that you are hopelessly lost and you should see how many skills really change and that usually only a few elite skills are added (depends on the class) - I'll fade out that almost every DD with Kitty, Lua or anyway similar plays.
    Point 3. If we compare. Players with gold gear and end-game stats, then we shouldn't compare that to a new tank player who might not even have all set skills, etc.


    Yes, tank classes have been the same for a long time. But as your guild member wrote, you can also refuel with other classes. (If you like that, gladly, not me - but that's just my opinion)
    Why weren't they changed? Quite simply because it is simply not necessary. You can easily keep the aggro, apart from the fact that the mobs fall over within seconds anyway and you don't actually need a tank.


    On the topic of the new player leaving the game because they can't keep up or can't get into the game. I wouldn't say that it's because of balancing. I think it's more because of the toxic community that screams at every little mistake someone makes. For example in Rofl. (I definitely count myself among them)

    Nevertheless, you can stand up and if these players are in a guild or just have questions - after all, it is an MMORPG where the basic framework should be communication - then you can help these players and explain what they are doing wrong. Many players come and just adapt first. Play leech classes (I don't think need to enumerate). How should new players who mostly have nothing yet, find connection to players who are already finished and just wait for something new to come.

    I can understand that you would like to have variations in the tank class and maybe not just play with the same rota all the time or sub class. But then, make suggestions and don't argue the class is boring because xxx.

    But I would like to change skill x, y so that he maybe does that (for example, disarming).
    Because in the end, only a few buttons are pressed on each class.


    ~ just my opinion!

    Greetings

    champion is not weak (ch/m, ch/s and ch/wl). but champion is harder to play than warrior or warden. I guess that's why ppl play warrior and warden instead of champion

    I think especially the 3 class combinations mentioned by Lutine are very good actually, but champions are harder to understand and i know only a few players who actually do very good with it. Of course there are weak links to champ classes like in every other class, but champions shows to me the best how a good understanding of the game and the class make you much stronger and i would wish for more of these class combinations where the skill ceiling is higher then for example on scout/warrior and especially mages. If a change or buff to champions should happen then only on the weak links and not on ch/m ch/s and ch/wl.


    In a more general topic of class balancing

    I think there are a lot of good classes but also players need to step out of there comfort zone and try more combinations and of course at the start some classes seem weak to you but at the end only a few classes are really "unplayable" like some players would say.

    I would actually say if more players would share their experience of classes maybe we could get this topic faster pushed in the right direction. And ofc class balancing can never be finished it is like in every game always a work in progress and we can all help to make this game better.

    Hello everyone;


    First of all, I want to talk about support class. Don't you think the support classes are very easy to play?

    Wouldn't it make more sense for the Warlock/mage class to go back to 2017-2018 and be a little harder to play?

    I loved playing wl/m.When I came back to the game after a long break, I realized that this class comb. was very easy. That's why I can never have fun.I think dwarf beer should be banned for wl/m class comb.Requirements for their skills should be increased. I'm waiting for support from friends like me who play support class so that it retains its old value again.

    Please don't mind if my english is wrong. See u soon.

    Quote from Cosmo

    Ok, let's get one thing straight. Playing tank is boring because you only press 2 buttons as a tank.

    Point 1. If you only press 2 buttons as a tank (or skills) then you are definitely doing something wrong and then it's no wonder that you don't hold aggro.

    Where are you even getting on that people only press two skills? Even the newbies I have talked to about this and given them pointers on how to do things never once were like "lol I just press two buttons". Not a single one. They just didn't know the pace, didn't know when to properly press what, their muscle memory wasn't developed all that much yet for tanking. Skills develop with time. Time they can't get because nobody wants to run with a bad tank.


    Quote from Cosmo

    Point 2. What do rouges, scouts, champions, mages do. Do you feel the presses more? If you think that you are hopelessly lost and you should see how many skills really change and that usually only a few elite skills are added (depends on the class) - I'll fade out that almost every DD with Kitty, Lua or anyway similar plays.

    What you're arguing here is pretty far away from what I am expressing: the point I'm making is that new players have a too hard time getting into tanking. It's (unlike dps) actually harder now to get aggro than it was - granted, it's still easy once you get the hang of it. Is it still unclear?


    Quote from Cosmo

    Point 3. If we compare. Players with gold gear and end-game stats, then we shouldn't compare that to a new tank player who might not even have all set skills, etc.

    So.. go out, find new players, talk to them what their difficulties are. Do what I do. You will soon find that tanking is hard to get into. It's easy with experience.


    Quote from Cosmo

    Yes, tank classes have been the same for a long time. But as your guild member wrote, you can also refuel with other classes. (If you like that, gladly, not me - but that's just my opinion)
    Why weren't they changed? Quite simply because it is simply not necessary. You can easily keep the aggro, apart from the fact that the mobs fall over within seconds anyway and you don't actually need a tank.

    Yeah, but do we really need 13 tank classes (7 knight-tanks, 2 warden tanks, 3 champ-tanks, 1 warrior tank) when practically 3-5 are meta-defining good? Why not rework some of them into a more diverse set? Why not make a really, really noob friendly tank so people can get into it much easier?


    Quote from Cosmo

    On the topic of the new player leaving the game because they can't keep up or can't get into the game. I wouldn't say that it's because of balancing. I think it's more because of the toxic community that screams at every little mistake someone makes. For example in Rofl. (I definitely count myself among them)

    They mostly leave over frustration; this frustration comes from many sources, balance being one of them but by far not the only one. The other is the fact that newbies do not have a natural way of progression anymore - the minigame-sets, which were once the way to progess are no longer there.


    Quote from Cosmo

    I can understand that you would like to have variations in the tank class and maybe not just play with the same rota all the time or sub class. But then, make suggestions and don't argue the class is boring because xxx.

    But I would like to change skill x, y so that he maybe does that (for example, disarming).
    Because in the end, only a few buttons are pressed on each class.

    I just genuinely want things to be more diverse. As a consumer it is not my job to provide these reworks; it is my job, if I want a good product, to tell the team what I want - then I'll happily spend a ton of money on this game. What I want is a knight DPS in plate gear, what I want is for plate fragments in rofl to not feel like wasted loot.

    if you really think being smart wl / m is easy, then I have to disappoint you. People who play this class (as a support) at a decent level, prevailing in the minority. Good DPS in a group in the leg is based on the skills of this class and of course the professionalism of DPS

    It seems to me that a good buffer in a random run is to look for it with a candle. Most only go for a drop. Most people don't use their basic skills, let alone buffs from wars and instruments.

    Hi all,


    Could you give your opinion on Scout/Warlock pls ?


    Specially on the skill Weakening Weave (which gives dark dmg debuff) and Joint Blow ...


    Would not the Weave give a posion debuff (can't think of anything for this skill give dark dmg debuff) ? and Joint Blow have more range and poison ?


    Zargo

    Quote from zargophian

    Could you give your opinion on Scout/Warlock pls ?

    Sure, S/Wl is pretty okay at the moment. Not the best overall, but a decent burst and fun to play. It's one of the better magical dps classes, but also requires a bit of resource management, since you only have focus and your skills require a lot of that. So you wanna setup your rota on some specific way, finding the sweat spot between costs and dps.

    Quote from zargophian

    Would not the Weave give a posion debuff (can't think of anything for this skill give dark dmg debuff) ? and Joint Blow have more range and poison ?

    Weakening Weave deals poison damage, Joint Blow does not, which is good as it is. Another spamable would be too much for the class imo. Maybe only possible, if it's not as strong as the one of S/M, but similar to the normal Shot or Vampire Arrows of S/Wl. Sometimes, if you run around a lot, you don't use your channel/cast spells, which sometimes brings you to the point, that no other useful skill available. Then I use the Manadraining Shot, in order to use a gcd for the Elemental Discipline (which is still better than no spell at all on a dead global cooldown). So yes, 1 more skill could match into an optimized rotation as a filler, but not more than just a filler.


    The debuff of WWC shouldn't give poison damage received, since other poison type classes would also benefit from that. Imagine a druid/warlock with such support... :pinch:

    Thanks for the overview.


    Agree and also my view on all what u said on GCD.


    I can't find an optimized rotation for this class. Maybe I m missing something but I' m always missing one skill.

    Wind Arrows with Xbow is only good on burst when using the 5m cd (Arrow of Essence) ?? (maybe I m wrong)


    "Another spamable would be too much for the class imo." maybe I m missing something but what is the spamable skill ?


    Also agree on what u said on debuff WWC and d/wl but should we think like that ? Should we balance one class depending on other classes ? Maybe is the d/wl that needs review. (just saying)


    Also if anyone knows what is the function for ranged attack speed pls.



    Quote from Zyrex

    Imagine a druid/warlock with such support.. :pinch:

    This says more about the opness of the druid/warlock (which it is(!!!) and I don't think that the 10% nerf on all poison skills will help that much) and less about if the skill should increase poison damage. From the normal wwc benefit all classes that deal dark damage, so it would be the same for the few posion classes.

    However, if I remember correctly, such a change was already asked for (quite a while ago) and I think it was explicitly declined.

    It's time again for CoA - Chain of Arcadia

    Like 2
    Quote from Laisha
    Quote from Zyrex

    Imagine a druid/warlock with such support.. :pinch:

    This says more about the opness of the druid/warlock (which it is(!!!) and I don't think that the 10% nerf on all poison skills will help that much) and less about if the skill should increase poison damage. From the normal wwc benefit all classes that deal dark damage, so it would be the same for the few posion classes.

    However, if I remember correctly, such a change was already asked for (quite a while ago) and I think it was explicitly declined.

    Would agree on that also... Still am more intrigued with class rotation...