Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

    He'll make a joke.


    You go k/wl and then the nerf scout S/D! xD

    what you mean?

    The bug is existent and can be proven.


    Btw: S/D is not really a nerf just change dmg for attack speed and all scouts gets a push up to 15% -> what else you want? :O

    I didn't say that something is wrong, you just misunderstood my English. I meant that it makes the s/d hit harder and then get nerfed. As for the change from speed to dmg, in a normal flight the fact only loses the physical attack (you know how s / d works so I won't explain it) it does not lose, but it will be very noticeable on full fire.

    Quote from Ramer
    Quote from xLutinex

    what you mean?

    The bug is existent and can be proven.


    Btw: S/D is not really a nerf just change dmg for attack speed and all scouts gets a push up to 15% -> what else you want? :O

    I didn't say that something is wrong, you just misunderstood my English. I meant that it makes the s/d hit harder and then get nerfed. As for the change from speed to dmg, in a normal flight the fact only loses the physical attack (you know how s / d works so I won't explain it) it does not lose, but it will be very noticeable on full fire.

    sure I know how it works. But I see all patch notes. and up to 15% is a lot in my opinion.

    I guess they want that the scouts be more in same dmg range and not one top scout. thats why a small s/d nerf and buff for scouts in general

    Mage

    • Reduced Elemental Knowledge damage gain to 64% from 72.7%.

    Warlock

    • Reduced Ill Will damage gain to 100% from 111%.


    I don't understand general nerfs like these if they don't come with buffs for worst combinations at the same time.


    Regards.

    I see that the people responsible for character balance carefully read the forum and analyze it with what they want to do, s/d nerf even though it did not perform exceptionally well on equal gear and buffs compared to several classes that are currently not being touched, still having weak combinations of the rest of the connections of Scout and several completely unplayed connections. And of course, changes without justification. Once again, you only confirm that balance is a bit of a challenge for you

    Bard/Scout

    • Changed Archer Rune to be triggered only with single target skills, changed triggered attack to be Soul Gale spell instead.


    You understand that B/S was only strong because it could hit an AOE once every 3 minutes and make up for what other classes lack in instances. It doesn't perform phenomenally on a single target, and now the only AOE skill won't work as it should. B/S, in my opinion, should have a shorter cast time for skills, and you're not taking away the mechanics that allowed it to catch up with the rest of the raid (because it also needed a large number of opponents in the range of the skill). Super change, certainly much needed and justified - not just silence.

    i too dont understand the logic behind these changes(nerfs).

    a little more clarity goes a long way :) .

    why ask for us to do a poll on the changes we want ? and it FEELS like you ignore some in game issues.

    dont get me wrong i bet it takes a lot of work to maintain everything as a whole, but a little more info can give us(me) a little more understanding on why nerfs keep happening.i for one dont like to build gear up just to watch my dmg drop lol.

    but maybe it's just me :P


    greetings

    Regarding the changes to mdps classes: Mage nerfs are kind of justified i guess. But can someone tell me where the warlock nerfs are coming from? Those were like the last mdps classes that i would have touched imo.


    ~kind regards


    Edit.: Something else to point out is that by nerfing wl and mage you are indirectly pushing scout/mage to be the best mdps period. It is already one of the strongest mdps options and it will get a lot better with the planned generall scout buff of 15%.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Noodlez

    Regarding the changes to mdps classes: Mage nerfs are kind of justified i guess. But can someone tell me where the warlock nerfs are coming from? Those were like the last mdps classes that i would have touched imo.


    ~kind regards


    Edit.: Something else to point out is that by nerfing wl and mage you are indirectly pushing scout/mage to be the best mdps period. It is already one of the strongest mdps options and it will get a lot better with the planned generall scout buff of 15%.

    Just to make it clear, both classes received total of a 5% damage output reduction.


    Greetings

    Yes i understand that. And i can get behind those changes in generall. I also appreciate the Champ/Bard nerfs a lot. However from what i have seen and played the Warlocks seem to be the worst choice of mdps. And i just wanted to point out that the Scout mdps classes might get too strong after the Distance Friend buff. They are already very good, with Scout/Mage potentially being the best mdps class after the Champ/Bard nerfs.


    ~kind regards


    Too much to say and compare. Luckily, my mates have good equipment and a high level of gameplay. But I will touch everything with strokes and it will become clear to you why I asked the question in the paragraph above:


    1) You're making changes to rogues, but no change to the apparently necessary dps increase for various rogue combos. Some combos are completely forgotten.


    2) You take 10% dps from the mage, which is impossible to play in endgame instances (except m/s PS if someone decides to mention m/ch or m/r, then come to the dungeon and prove it to me in comparison with me). I will not even talk about the latest "boost" of m/p type connections. And we still remember "-26% intelligence". At the same time, such bundles as s/m, ch/b (mentioned by Noodlez), s/wl and the most juicy for a raid instance wl/d remain untouched. I still don't understand what you are balancing.


    3) Warlocks: I don't really understand the 11% elemental damage (dark) nerf. If we're talking about a Warlock/Scout, it's completely fair (obviously stronger than other Warlocks). Buuut, wait. Wl/s gets a minus 11% from the main skill, and the increase in dark damage from Blood Arrow is reduced to 11.4% from 22.8% (another minus 11.4). Perhaps (but you have to try), maybe this is true when it comes to a warlock / scout. But why did all the other warlocks suffer? Maybe someone knows more, I would very much like to talk with this player.


    4) if you need scout advice just ask Cruvor, Ramer, Lutine. This is because scouts also need balance. I'm not talking about boosting or nerfing combos, but the balance between them. It seems to me that starting with this, we can then talk about the balance of classes. And where is the much-awaited new skill? ;)


    5) Chain ... I can't comment here because I haven't played with this type of equipment.


    But I can say very exaggerated at the moment chain=cloth>leather (in general).


    oh yes... Of course, I appreciate the endgame ini (which rofl is no longer for me, for example)

    Mage/rogue is in a veeeeery good spot at the moment. It has raid support, deals the best dmg type in the game (dark) and has an overpowered burst skill that lets it beat scouts and other burst classes as long as the burst doesnt last longer than 10 seconds. Probably not as good as scout/mage or mage/scout but a little too strong in bursts.

    Quote from Kagamiko

    1) You're making changes to rogues, but no change to the apparently necessary dps increase for various rogue combos. Some combos are completely forgotten.

    I don't know what other leather players plays, but I tested for example r/wrd in idk a few days ago (idk bcs I only have old weapons and there you don't get an extra boost with dc weapons).

    I for myself saw, that based on my eq the class was good. Not to weak, not OP. The biggest problem I always saw was, that most rogue players are very squishy (maybe bcs of greedy dmg), but I rarely died in general in idk, bcs I play more defensive and maybe that's why my overall dmg was always good

    Cool, I'm playing a different game again than most others \o/


    Assuming the devs balance around dc AND idk, some changes really make sense imo. So let's enter my different game for a second and simulate as we all would play on the same server... Here we go...


    A) Warlocks were stronger than every mage before the patch, but mages were better in every 6 man content, so I assume the nerf of both was reasonable :/


    B) Some specific (very much) overpowered classes, such as Ch/B and Wl/S were nerfed additionally, perfect :thumbup:


    C) S/M was nerfed aa few patches ago (lost 5% matt and got little xbow magic damage instead), the class feels like an average mdps these days to me. Nothing really broken, but equal to a bard/mage with just different advantages and disadvantages, but overall same damage.


    D)

    Quote from Kagamiko

    2) You take 10% dps from the mage, which is impossible to play in endgame instances (except m/s PS if someone decides to mention m/ch or m/r, then come to the dungeon and prove it to me in comparison with me). I will not even talk about the latest "boost" of m/p type connections. And we still remember "-26% intelligence". At the same time, such bundles as s/m, ch/b (mentioned by Noodlez), s/wl and the most juicy for a raid instance wl/d remain untouched. I still don't understand what you are balancing.

    You could actually play M/K in there, which was rlly cool too. I'm curious if it's still viable, since I focused on op m/s and warlocks for the last weeks in dc. M/Ch has a shitty matt but is the very best mdps class in IDK imo. In DC it wasn't as bad, too and gave decent support to Ch/B (the same way a S/M supports B/M)...


    E) I was testing the Wl/S on dummy yesterday and compared with my past parses. And (excluding the dummy circumstances) turned out it lost like 5.5% damage output overall. Damn, that's a huge impact! Wl/Ch didn't feel any change at all, the 5% feel like the normal variance while parsing (parses differ between +-2-5% normally).


    F) Mages on the other hand, feel much weaker through the same 5% nerf. My M/S lost like 20% (should be less in real instance, would assume like 12-15%), M/Ch lost 11% compared to my parses from 3 days ago. So yea I agree, mages need a boost soon to be fine again. :/

    Quote from Noodlez

    Mage/rogue is in a veeeeery good spot at the moment. It has raid support, deals the best dmg type in the game (dark) and has an overpowered burst skill that lets it beat scouts and other burst classes as long as the burst doesnt last longer than 10 seconds. Probably not as good as scout/mage or mage/scout but a little too strong in bursts.

    Yes, its good as support, like mexxer, but not dps. It has burst each 2.5 min (at this time others - 1.5 min).

    Quote from xLutinex
    Quote from Kagamiko

    1) You're making changes to rogues, but no change to the apparently necessary dps increase for various rogue combos. Some combos are completely forgotten.

    I don't know what other leather players plays, but I tested for example r/wrd in idk a few days ago (idk bcs I only have old weapons and there you don't get an extra boost with dc weapons).

    I for myself saw, that based on my eq the class was good. Not to weak, not OP. The biggest problem I always saw was, that most rogue players are very squishy (maybe bcs of greedy dmg), but I rarely died in general in idk, bcs I play more defensive and maybe that's why my overall dmg was always good

    My friend, if we say about rogue=0.6-0.8dps=not weak, u are right 100%. but if we're talking about competition, i have other opinion.


    And for u, my dear Zyrex, I'll write new post :D

    A) if you are talking about nostalgia for mages, then having a warrior and a scout in the group (where you are one dps more) you will not have time to deal damage. It's a setup question. When we talk about DC and talk about a mage, then personally I feel an acute shortage of parameters (specifically - magic attack). And it's pointless to compare classes, half are just dead.

    С) scout mage is utterly stronger than bard mage

    D) I tested M/K 5-7 days ago. It is really good, BUT before second boss DC (i lose 10-15% top1)

    E) My favorite category is testing for dummy... It's not the first day you've been playing and you should understand that here you can only compare the damage done. In a dungeon, you don't even know the meaning of protection. The only question is the stability of your game as a DPS

    Quote from Kagamiko

    And for u, my dear Zyrex, I'll write new post :D

    Oh no, I feel very comfortable in my personal bubble, please don't make me leave it =O


    aaaand

    Quote from Kagamiko

    Yes, its good as support, like mexxer, but not dps. It has burst each 2.5 min (at this time others - 1.5 min).

    If you reset your elemental catalysis after half of its cd is completed, you can use it every 2 mins and combine it with the 2 funny ghosts which has 2 min cd as well. You can even use water and elven potion for a third burst-like burst that only works on single targets :whistling:


    PS: Have fun including this into your next answer as well) 8o

    A) That's our default setup in IDK, actually me as M/Ch or M/R or M/K, a S/D and a W/Whatever. And M/Ch was best overall, even while gears of us were equal. M/R was the weakest of the 3 mages, but had best support at the same time. However, M/R is perfect for Kalin imo, that's enough of use cases for me.


    C) In which way? Sustain damage of bard is better than scout, so if you don't burst constantly, bard would be equal or even better, depending on raid speed. And even in fast raids, if you have a S/M and a B/M at the same time, b/m makes up in burst through the debuff.


    E) Point is, that 2 same tests under same circumstances with the same environment result in a difference of 5% if enough for me to be sure that Wl/S isn't cut as much as it looks like in the patchnotes. But sure, dummy differs a lot from instances, you can only compare max damage but never include additional support etc, since conditions are too different... But why should I care about protection if I don't die in idk or dc at all as a ranged dps? Guess I don't get your point here :/

    Quote from Zyrex
    Quote from Zyrex

    If you reset your elemental catalysis after half of its cd is completed, you can use it every 2 mins and combine it with the 2 funny ghosts which has 2 min cd as well. You can even use water and elven potion for a third burst-like burst that only works on single targets

    PS: Have fun including this into your next answer as well) 8o

    Yes, sorry, you're right, every 2 minutes. But unfortunately it is 33% less common than others :)

    А) I was in IDK as m/ch and s/m. And my slow fingers said me "play s/m, if u have w/s or w/d in group" :D doesnt matter both classes are strong for this

    C) I always only count damage throughout the dungeon. Because the result is the end. I never look at dps separately for trash and bosses (Provided that the group needs to pick up a setup so that there is enough damage at all stages)

    E) yes, perhaps I should have clarified :D I'm talking about the protection of mobs and bosses, in order to understand what food, synedrils, supports and what ranks to choose :D Our defense as a long-range dps is not important

    Edited once, last by Kagamiko: Присоединен пост , созданные пользователем Kagamiko , в этот пост. ().

    Can you back that up with numbers/setups maybe? I did around 25 DC- and 15 Idk-runs with mage in the last couple of weeks and it felt really strong. The couple i did on wl felt awful. But i have a very old gear and maybe i am doing something wrong on the wl classes. Furthermore i personally dont think doing rotations on dummies helps at all. Its always about the raid setups and generally most played classes.


    ~ kind regards

    Quote from Kagamiko
    Quote from Zyrex

    PS: Have fun including this into your next answer as well) 8o

    Yes, sorry, you're right, every 2 minutes. But unfortunately it is 33% less common than others :)

    If you just burst every 2 minutes with all of your raid, it shall be fine ^^


    In theory (according to my parses and a little imagination) mages in general are stronger than (most) warlocks in aoe sustain dps, so in future instances that have twice the amount of mobs of dc but half their defenses, mages would be always better :P


    Quote from Kagamiko

    А) I was in IDK as m/ch and s/m. And my slow fingers said me "play s/m, if u have w/s or w/d in group" :D doesnt matter both classes are strong for this

    C) I always only count damage throughout the dungeon. Because the result is the end. I never look at dps separately for trash and bosses (Provided that the group needs to pick up a setup so that there is enough damage at all stages)

    E) yes, perhaps I should have clarified :D I'm talking about the protection of mobs and bosses, in order to understand what food, synedrils, supports and what ranks to choose :D Our defense as a long-range dps is not important

    A) Feel that, but I'm playing with a combat engine (leave the hard finger acrobatics to other games! :D) so I don't have any issues with M/Ch, but can imagine how it feels to play fully "manually" =O Maybe mages are stronger these days if you play them with a good engine (not speaking of shitty combo), that would explain why opinions differ that much in some cases :/


    C) I use to look at both. You need much more full runs to compare full raid damage parses and always the same raid setup, the same amount of burst phases etc. So I assume one cannot compare two classes only through full run scrutis, esp since scrutinizer is the most inaccurate dps parse addon I've ever seen in an mmo. However, I once even managed to outdamage warriors, scouts and even warlocks in boss burst in DC as Bard/Mage when a (physical) S/M was in the raid. So I would assume that both b/m and s/m are equal. So either S/M isn't as strong as ppl tell in my hands, or B/M is stronger in my hands than ppl tell. :pinch:


    E) True that, however, if you compare on dummy, you expect the perfect world, where either all debuffs are applied, or nothing, doesn't matter since all parses use the same conditions. I said "excluding the dummy circumstances" at the beginning, so I already counted in differences that only apply on dummy parses, such as matt inc, mdef dec, support, etc. However, I think it's time to get better dummys in Itnal camp, guess I suggested this a houndred times already =O

    Unfortunately I don't save my scrutis, so no, can't proof my points with numbers. Don't even remember what classes were played there, however in my former guild most ppl always played the same classes, so debuffs/buffs didn't change as much :/


    The only mage that was better than all warlocks in DC was M/S, the others had too poor matt to compete with warlocks that just got passive int bonus through class, some got another attributes bonus through buffs, others through additional weapon/talisman. However, Wl/R was useless to me in every way, Wl/Ch was better in every scenario, so I acted like Wl/R doesn't exist for a while (and still is).


    But I agree, depending on raid setups and raid gameplay, all our opinions can differ. That's why I'm pretending to play a different game or being in my own bubble, cause I think my personal gameplay differs very much from most others. So warlocks were stronger than mages in dc for me, can't do anything about it :| Can't even believe how mage could be better than warlock with "lower" gear unless it was /scout :huh:

    Quote from Zyrex

    But I agree, depending on raid setups and raid gameplay, all our opinions can differ. That's why I'm pretending to play a different game or being in my own bubble, cause I think my personal gameplay differs very much from most others. So warlocks were stronger than mages in dc for me, can't do anything about it :| Can't even believe how mage could be better than warlock with "lower" gear unless it was /scout :huh:

    I am almost exclusively playing mage/rogue and it works very well for me. I get consistent results and it seems to beat out a lot of classes on 4th dc boss with ease. I am in full rofl gear with only DC-weapon for the bonus. Maybe gear doesnt matter as much on mage compared to wl? I have no idea. The times ive seen warlock or tried it myself it was always below the mage/scout or mage/rogue. Same for IDK btw.


    However everything really doesnt mean too much without dedicated test environments and then classes scale differently with the various supports and so on...


    But it is really interesting to see so many different results and i like the chaos :)