Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

    Quote from Zyrex
    Quote from Noodlez

    I mean you cant really know because you have been inactive right? So maybe stay away from making a comment like that then? The only playable mage classes where those that provide some party support or have rly good offburst.

    These past patches it was go wl or go home rly. If it was different in your guild runs maybe try to bring some more support classes, as pdps scales a lot better with support than mdps does.

    Well, we had always more support classes than actual dps classes, but however mage was always top tier in our runs. I wasn't talking about S/M bcz such broken classes first need to more adaption before being able to be compared to others. But yes, S/M is the very better mage and if it stays as is, we would probably rely on that one.


    But yea, here we are again, 2 different opinions and no way to find out what is the actual "objective truth". So if you say, mage is weak these days, fine, buff mage. Our guild will not suffer from that, just the opposite :D

    I agree. :)

    Maybe i just play with imba op pdps players, maybe i am just a worse mage player than your mages or maybe your pdps players need a bit more practice. Anyway it is almost impossible to make a scientific comparison.


    But i am curious if your warlocks are doing less than your mages?


    Edit1: Last patches has been chain>wl/leather>mages 100%. But on this patch its probably not like this because the wise changes seem a bit strong so ill give you the benefit of the doubt.

    I read you guys and many write the right things, everyone is right about something. I'll try to be brief :)

    1. Pdps are by far the strongest classes in the game, mdps is significantly inferior (proven in a huge number of races with the strongest players on this server)

    2. Classes of healers, in my personal opinion, should remain healers and improve their healing skills and support. For players in the cloth, there are mage classes and wl

    3. Each guild has its own top players, and they can have any classes, but when such top players from different guilds meet in a random race together, this is the very opportunity for the most adequate comparison of classes



    :!::!::!:

    I really, really, really ask, please (!), Make the mage /r skill "Gift of the Baron" work the same way as "Soul Scrusher"
    :!::!::!:


    :saint:good day everyone :saint:

    Hey,


    Quote from espar91

    then i would suggest you to get better pdps in your runs to compare yourself, because mage has no chance against almost any pdps class in current content.

    About the comparison - it is true. ANd the classes that can compete are getting instantly nerfed like s/m.

    Quote from Noodlez

    Last patches has been chain>wl/leather>mages 100%. But on this patch its probably not like this because the wise changes seem a bit strong so ill give you the benefit of the doubt.

    I can agree on this. Wl for example feels way better than mage main classes and especially what i've seen from rogue classes - there is no chance to compete. Burst dmg for example is way lower compared to the mage classes.


    Also about these changes:

    • Reduced The Inferno damage to 250%/1170% from 250%/1300%.
    • Reduced Flame Arrows damage to 478%/1170% from 478%/1434%.

    I know the Scout/mage is strong since its release but is it necessary to nerf the magical every patch atm? ofc it has a strong aoe burst but the physical version of this class is stronger in any way than the magical one. The constant damage of the magical is a bit stronger but especially in the burst, burst aoe etc the physical one is way stronger.


    Idk how others see it im hoping for some feedback here (and in general).


    Additionally i wanted to suggest some changes on the mage/warrior.

    Atm it is not the worst class and not the best one either. The problem about it you get a 2nd whole gear to perform worse than other mage combos like m/s and m/r. You can just simply get a xbow or dagger and deal more damage.

    Thats why i wanted to suggest some changes for this class:

    - Maybe give it an additional skill which is based on cps (or change a current one like flame).

    - Increase the dmg % of wisdom and bravery a bit. 12-15% maybe?

    - Change the buff of "Magical Talent" into something really useful. HP and especially MP really don't matter. No skill uses alot of Mana and the only reason you get oom is of the % cost. Or change "Activate Mana" to something mentioned above^^

    - Or change the last named Buffs to a short time Buff which changes a skill to cps based. It would be very nice for all mages btw because on a mage cast speed is nearly useless because you anyway get easily to 0.5s cast.


    It would be nice to see atleast one mage with a nice burst because there is not really 1 mage that can compete in burst.


    Greetings



    EDIT: I didn't meant that the buffgear is a bad part - i love that fact because it makes this class unique. It's the identity of this class. I just wanted to mention that it's not worth it atm to play this class^^

    Quote from Persil

    - Or change the last named Buffs to a short time Buff which changes a skill to cps based. It would be very nice for all mages btw because on a mage cast speed is nearly useless because you anyway get easily to 0.5s cast.

    If is only the 3s skill I wouldn't mind but if is whole class, please don't. Most cps classes are terrible. Only one worth was s/m and we see how is that going with a nerf everyday. They did the same to s/wl, it was good until it died. Look what happened to d/r, they turned it into nothing, from one of the best to the worst.

    Warlocks are super strong and they aren't cps. Im sure they can just buff 3s spammable skill to make it worth in boss burst (anyway is the only place we use that skill).

    Heyho,


    I also would agree on that change tbh:)

    I already suggested this way earlier but the increase was like 9%? The Flame damage changed - but not that much tbh.

    Also its just about 1 skill thats why i suggested it. A Whole cps class is.. yes i agree with you^^

    WL dont really need that because of the insane elemental boosts they got. Mages cant get even near that numbers. Mage/warrior for example has only around 250% fire damage at max. He has high mdmg values but his output is a joke compared to a wl dmg output in numbers^^


    Add: But cps would make the additional cast time mages have way more useful at the moment.

    Edit 2: Something like a snipe of the scout with cps would be also a good choice. Or a stronger skill with much higher base dmg and cd like from the mage/druid "Mother Earths Wrath"


    Greetings

    Quote from Madox

    ps classes are terrible. Only one worth was s/m and we see how is that going with a nerf everyday. They did the same to s/wl, it was good until it died. Look what happened to d/r, they turned it into nothing, from one of the best to the worst.

    I completly disagree on the Druid/Rogue part. Sure its not broken af (lika a D/W e.g.) but its nowhere near terrible, it is in my opinion just fine(Yes, unbelievable but such a class exists!!!). In addition to a great support (less crit. ress. / battle rezz / less def/ Sinister Request/ Nature's Cleanse (if you have invested in it)) you deal good damage as well. Especially after the introduction of "Mind Vitalisation" and the last 2 (I think) changes, this class deals quite a lot of damage over a longer period of time because its really easy to be at .5 Cast speed, which makes it quite good in longer boss fights (e.g. rofl b2, b3 and b5). While it wasn't



    Also I don't think that a class which has great raid support should deal the same amount of damage that a selfish, I-only-buff-my-own-damage, class deals.


    ~Just my personal thought after playing this class for the last couple of days.


    Greetings.

    It's time again for CoA - Chain of Arcadia

    Like 2
    Quote from Persil

    Also about these changes:

    • Reduced The Inferno damage to 250%/1170% from 250%/1300%.
    • Reduced Flame Arrows damage to 478%/1170% from 478%/1434%.

    I know the Scout/mage is strong since its release but is it necessary to nerf the magical every patch atm? ofc it has a strong aoe burst but the physical version of this class is stronger in any way than the magical one. The constant damage of the magical is a bit stronger but especially in the burst, burst aoe etc the physical one is way stronger.


    Idk how others see it im hoping for some feedback here (and in general).

    Hi,


    I tested both versions on my own. I did a lot more damage with the magical one (imagine I have not soooo good mdps gear). ~30kk joint blows in burst is stronger than the pdps version can do. Also sustain was higher on magical one

    Quote

    Взаимодействие с другими людьми

    hi :)
    yes, in our group wl (me) does more damage than mage

    but this is only in our group, each guild has its own result, probably

    so strengthening the mage is not a bad decision



    Most of those things a normal druid (healer) would do... would you find a person to use d/r as sup? I saw m/r without doing any dmg cose they can contribute as sup but never saw a d/r used as sup.


    As I said before, all wl dps do op dmg and they can res, they give attack (which i prefer more than any of druid dps skills could do) and noone say: hey they are sups, lets nerf them. R/ch give sup things and is one of best dps outthere. R/wd had a group skill. Wd/d had too. S/r? I consider that a dps, not a sup. Or all champs with 104 set skill were always dps and not supports until this patch. Many classes do that and are considered a dps, not a support.


    I really think druids dps (mdps atleast) are mistreated always fine to have them as one of worst dps (d/r, d/wl, d/m) because they can res and clean a trap.


    But thats my opinion tho :P

    I never said that D/R is "just a supp". What I said is, that this class has support skills in addition(!) to dealing damage. I only disagreed with you on the "worst dps"-part because that is, for me, not true! Sure a wl/ch or wl/r deals more damage, but in my opinon that is not because the d/r is bad, but because wl are too strong (Edit: I take the "too strong" part back. They aren't too strong compared to most pdps.)

    From my experience I could, overall, easily compare to most rogues (maybe except r/m and r/wd) and scouts and I did more damage than any mage (same damage as m/r).

    It's time again for CoA - Chain of Arcadia

    Edited 2 times, last by Laisha ().

    Like 1

    Btw I forgot to mention, that Wind Arrow get lower CD with xbow. Overall maybe a push, definitly in single target burst

    So many posts in here are going in circles and splitting hairs. The general sentiment is that there is a huge disparity in the mDPS-Scene, nothing more. You agree on that. The nitty gritty is something that the development team has to take into their hands.


    The main issue in this thread, is that the suggestion of an even basis for balancing is absolutely laughable. This makes most data gathered, frankly, quite useless. Just look at the things outside the game: Someone playing with a Kittycombo will never reach the same dps as someone with an OK Lua. Luas are personalized and vary a lot. Guilds keep their tech mostly secret which just elevates the differences in experiences and output. How does anyone here expect to get accurate balancing from skewed data?


    Literally every rule in the book about gathering data is being broken here - and the decisions being made based on that data are thereby often not fact-based.


    Especially the process of getting one's collected data heard is questionable at best, as many people treat this thread as a popularity contest to boost their egos under the thin veil of trying to do what's best for the game. The system of "who can scream the loudest" was abolished in the dark ages, yet consistently the most upvoted posts are implemented. Guildies will always up vote their friends posts - removing the validity of that system entirely. Dogpiling for influence is a bad tactic that will get bad results.


    The stream of soley endgame focused decisions has wrecked the progression for the midgame, as the only way to properly progress nowadays is to spend a good chunk of money or leeching. This leads to either the players quitting early or having a TON of leechers running around. We all can agree that neither of those things are a positive for the game. Yes, it's as easy now as when the endgame has done it in the past, but the feeling of progression being deleted has caused so many players to quit.


    A lot of guilds are shouting for the same roles to be filled over and over again with seemingly no one coming. This thread needs to take the needs and wants of less experienced players more seriously in order to keep a steady stream of newer players coming. They are the future. One day your guildies are going to quit. One day you will log out for the last time of this game. Until then, you should work on keeping the game alive, not serving yourself.

    Quote from MidanLauert

    So many posts in here are going in circles and splitting hairs. The general sentiment is that there is a huge disparity in the mDPS-Scene, nothing more. You agree on that. The nitty gritty is something that the development team has to take into their hands.

    Well it is just me and Zyrex having different opinions while Zyrex is admitting that he isnt even active and afterwards liking posts of his guild members which appear to have the exact same opinion as me so idk mate. xD


    Or am i missing something?

    Quote from Noodlez
    Quote from MidanLauert

    So many posts in here are going in circles and splitting hairs. The general sentiment is that there is a huge disparity in the mDPS-Scene, nothing more. You agree on that. The nitty gritty is something that the development team has to take into their hands.

    Well it is just me and Zyrex having different opinions while Zyrex is admitting that he isnt even active and afterwards liking posts of his guild members which appear to have the exact same opinion as me so idk mate. xD


    Or am i missing something?

    Basically the rest of my post, but this also includes the other discussions (like in laishas post) going on, hence the generalized wording in the part you quoted.

    Quote from MidanLauert
    Quote from Noodlez

    Well it is just me and Zyrex having different opinions while Zyrex is admitting that he isnt even active and afterwards liking posts of his guild members which appear to have the exact same opinion as me so idk mate. xD


    Or am i missing something?

    Basically the rest of my post, but this also includes the other discussions (like in laishas post) going on, hence the generalized wording in the part you quoted.

    I can't really comment on the rest of your post. In my opinion this server isnt really advertised anywere and the people joining are either people that played way back on the original servers or people that get in touch with the game via social contacts that play here.


    So yeah, i dont think the mid game you are talking about really exists and all balancing decisions should be for the end game.

    Quote from Noodlez
    Quote from MidanLauert

    So many posts in here are going in circles and splitting hairs. The general sentiment is that there is a huge disparity in the mDPS-Scene, nothing more. You agree on that. The nitty gritty is something that the development team has to take into their hands.

    Well it is just me and Zyrex having different opinions while Zyrex is admitting that he isnt even active and afterwards liking posts of his guild members which appear to have the exact same opinion as me so idk mate. xD


    Or am i missing something?

    I see, my post was completely understood correctly... ^^ Well.. whatever. I think it's a huge difference to play a mage class with kitty vs lua, but there also opinions divide. ;)



    Regarding the testing environment I was mentioning

    Let's not talk about the inconsistency of the data sources for "balancing" due to not having an equal testing environment, but lets suggest a solution for that:


    1. Split this thread into multiple class-related sub forums, each class gets one sub forum (as it was on the offi forum)

    2. Remove the useless pvp arena from Itnal Camp (which is never used at all afaik) and replace it with an advanced damage testing environment.

    3. Add some single target Baltons with full debuffs/playerbuffs with enough space in between, so that you don't hit more than 1 at a time with any existing AoE spell (like Soulcrusher, Thunderstorm, whatever).

    4. Add some multi target Beavers (groups of 3, 5, 9, 15 or such) with some basic debuffs/playerbuffs (no burst buffs, but sustain stuff like Charge Warp, etc).

    5. Profit.

    Quote from Noodlez
    Quote from MidanLauert

    Basically the rest of my post, but this also includes the other discussions (like in laishas post) going on, hence the generalized wording in the part you quoted.


    So yeah, i dont think the mid game you are talking about really exists and all balancing decisions should be for the end game.

    I'd just like to point out that you are doing exactly what you criticize Zyrex for. You aren't interacting with the very thing you're commenting on. The midgame does exist and is much heavier impacted by nerfs than the endgame, simply due to the exponantional nature of the game.

    Guilds like e.g. Avengement were able to run rofl here and there before some of the heavier patches happening in the past. They had some capable players that were bound by time rather than skill and willingness to spend. They then were banished into Gorge before a good portion of them flat out quit the game. This has happened on multiple occasions and is the very reason the noobies, the people actually starting out, find a hollowed out game. If this server is supposed to survive, those players are insanely important.

    It's easy to miss the trees with your head in the clouds. The milleus between the players is so different to a point where they don't interact with each other anymore.

    i agree that new players are future of arcadia, but then what do you suggest? boost new players even if it is going to boost experienced players alot because news are arcadia's future?


    Quote from MidanLauert

    Someone playing with a Kittycombo will never reach the same dps as someone with an OK Lua

    im using kitty combo and its quite enough for everything, there is nothing i can't do in kittycombo but in a lua script. i don't think i can do better damage with a lua script either.





    about the division between zyrex and others in this thread about mages;


    no, this division isn't about supports in raid or power difference of classes that is played. it isn't about gear either, i saw several pdps players in 2021 who is dealing good amount of damage even with that worse equipment. you just don't want to understand the point still and yet nobody is pointing that in their answers towards such opinions in forum yet, but im tired of such conversation for almost 1.5 years. only fact is that your physical damage dealers in your runs are BAD, there is nothing else that you should check. after knowing someone is bad, you just ignore those players to do comparison, and everything is fixed.


    such conclusion is nothing more than a nonsese; "my mage is better than a random pdps, i never saw any other better pdps in my last 6 months, so this guy is best pdps i saw so far, so mage is better than pdps". someone who can hear is in better condition compared to a deaf person, but you can't say that person who is able to hear is best human being ever existed just because you didn't see another person who is able to hear.


    stop comparing yourself with mediocre damage dealers and let them live with this until they develop their gameplay to be better. such players was always in this game even before balance and they were perfoming bad even with same class compared to another player, this is a fact that can't be changed. your this behaviour is just an insult to good mage players who is getting bullied by a good pdps in every run.

    the world chico, and everything in it.

    Like 9

    I'm just urging people to stop and think if the, in the past, drastic nerfs being proposed may impact other facets of the game more than their own. ROFL as an instance is due to be replaced, Gorge is generally disliked and Inferno isn't profitable enough to be ran. The community wishes for a new instance since a while now.

    What I propose is, band-aid fixes (which the 30% overall dmg nerf was) that burn other players now need to be stopped, the focus of the dev team should instead be on trying to make as many classes as diverse and viable as possible. I must praise the development team for implementing the s/m the way it is. It's a super creative class that rewards good positioning, works differently than any other class and is generally interesting to play. It was way too strong at the beginning, but that was to be expected from something so new.


    The quintessenceof what I am saying is:
    1) No amount of buffs or nerfs will make rofl and gorge any less boring

    2) The exponantial nature of the game works in both directions, f*ing over the smaller guys more than the big dogs.

    Here is exactly what I mean:
    Youtube.

    Quote from Zyrex

    1. Split this thread into multiple class-related sub forums, each class gets one sub forum (as it was on the offi forum)

    2. Remove the useless pvp arena from Itnal Camp (which is never used at all afaik) and replace it with an advanced damage testing environment.

    3. Add some single target Baltons with full debuffs/playerbuffs with enough space in between, so that you don't hit more than 1 at a time with any existing AoE spell (like Soulcrusher, Thunderstorm, whatever).

    4. Add some multi target Beavers (groups of 3, 5, 9, 15 or such) with some basic debuffs/playerbuffs (no burst buffs, but sustain stuff like Charge Warp, etc).

    5. Profit.

    Really Good Idea about the revamping of the PvP Arena

    But about the multiple threads i have mixed feelings. I can imagine some will get totally Flooded with feedback and others will be as good as Empty ( e.g Scout subthread . i saw over the last months 2 maybe 3 players giving active feedback to scouts , me included).


    Greetings

    If you identify a UFO as a UFO , then it becomes an FO. Unless it has landed , then it is simply an -> O

    Edited 2 times, last by Cruvor ().

    Like 4
    Quote from Zyrex
    Quote from Noodlez

    Well it is just me and Zyrex having different opinions while Zyrex is admitting that he isnt even active and afterwards liking posts of his guild members which appear to have the exact same opinion as me so idk mate. xD


    Or am i missing something?

    I see, my post was completely understood correctly... ^^ Well.. whatever. I think it's a huge difference to play a mage class with kitty vs lua, but there also opinions divide. ;)

    Sure lets be ironic and passiv aggressive towards each other.


    Most mages can actually be played by hand, i have legit zero clue what you are talking about.

    Quote from Noodlez
    Quote from Zyrex

    I see, my post was completely understood correctly... ^^ Well.. whatever. I think it's a huge difference to play a mage class with kitty vs lua, but there also opinions divide. ;)


    But hey, being part of the guild Ascension means you are intellectually above me and your opinion is worth more than mine even tho you contradict yourself.

    I'm genuinely sorry that you're getting that impression from us. I can guarantee that none of our guildies feel that way in regards to other guilds - we're a pretty chill bunch. Please do not take the fervent defenses as aggression. Misunderstandings in these threads happen all the time, as you know. I am sure, just like me, Zyrex didn't mean to personally attack you.

    Quote from Noodlez

    Most mages can actually be played by hand, i have legit zero clue what you are talking about.

    In regards to staying on topic though: You can basically play any character by hand. Won't be as good though!

    Quote from MidanLauert
    Quote from Noodlez

    But hey, being part of the guild Ascension means you are intellectually above me and your opinion is worth more than mine even tho you contradict yourself.

    I'm genuinely sorry that you're getting that impression from us. I can guarantee that none of our guildies feel that way in regards to other guilds - we're a pretty chill bunch. Please do not take the fervent defenses as aggression. Misunderstandings in these threads happen all the time, as you know. I am sure, just like me, Zyrex didn't mean to personally attack you.

    Quote from Noodlez

    Most mages can actually be played by hand, i have legit zero clue what you are talking about.

    In regards to staying on topic though: You can basically play any character by hand. Won't be as good though!

    -First part: I just see you guys acting all high and mighty on the forums while not really delivering ingame, but i cant check your internal guild runs so whatever.


    -Second part: Do you really believe we play by hand or kittycombo?


    Anyway the point was you dont really have to play mage classes with a script or addon unless it is something like m/wd that spams multiple non gcd skills. Otherwise the dmg will be roughly the same.

    Quote from Noodlez

    Sure lets be ironic and passiv aggressive towards each other.


    Most mages can actually be played by hand, i have legit zero clue what you are talking about.


    But hey, being part of the guild Ascension means you are intellectually above me and your opinion is worth more than mine even tho you contradict yourself.

    Sorry if you feel offended by my posting, that was not my intention. I think, you can optimize your dps on any mage by about 50-70% while writing a lua script rota that fits 100% to your personal gameplay. I mean, I alrdy saw rlly good players playing by hands, but the majority is not on that level (also I would rather play a dps with combat engine tho).


    I wouldn't say that Ascension is the number one guild overall xD Hell no, but we try our best to optimize our runs, in order to make it as comfortable as possible for all of us. If that means we take more supp than dps, so be it. I can only speak for my experiences in my guild, bcz I don't like random runs at all and try not to participate on too many of them. So if you guys tell me that all our pdps are just bad, I accept your opinion; my mdps also isn't perfect, maybe I rlly have a "wrong" point of view, we will never know ^^


    And exactly THIS leads me to my major point: That we need a unified dps testing environment, as I suggested above. It doesn't matter what we all say about balancing if we compare in an entirely randomized environment. I mean, we could ofc, but that wouldn't be effective. I know that from another server I was playing in the past (which is closed now). We had an exact same (as suggested) environment, so we could balance the entire game within about 2-3 months for one levelcap. It's not a big deal if you can discuss on a very same basis. But what do I know ^^

    Quote from Noodlez
    Quote from MidanLauert

    I'm genuinely sorry that you're getting that impression from us. I can guarantee that none of our guildies feel that way in regards to other guilds - we're a pretty chill bunch. Please do not take the fervent defenses as aggression. Misunderstandings in these threads happen all the time, as you know. I am sure, just like me, Zyrex didn't mean to personally attack you.

    In regards to staying on topic though: You can basically play any character by hand. Won't be as good though!

    -First part: I just see you guys acting all high and mighty on the forums while not really delivering ingame, but i cant check your internal guild runs so whatever.

    I'm pretty sure that this is simply an issue where the inflection of how things are being said is lost - and the way of arguing against each other taints the participants judgements, me included, to a tone where it seems like one party is attacking the other, even though no hostility is being meant. I am sorry for that. Text sucks at conveying that information. Please know that we're not about that.


    That being said, an open forum like that is made to express opinions, regardless of status. The technocratic approach doesn't work due to human nature being biased. Regardless of that: The claim we're not delivering... is interesting. What do you mean by that? We run rofl, average time is about an hour. Frankly, we chill most of the time and don't sweat through. Our fastet run was just below the 45 minute mark (post patch). Having a better run doesn't make your opinion any more or less valid.

    Quote from Noodlez

    -Second part: Do you really believe we play by hand or kittycombo?


    Anyway the point was you dont really have to play mage classes with a script or addon unless it is something like m/wd that spams multiple non gcd skills. Otherwise the dmg will be roughly the same.

    I know you don't, I never said you are and I don't know why you think I would for a second believe that. You're in a guild with some of the most skilled and equipped people, there's no doubt about that. Of course you wouldn't squash that potential by not using anything to help you out.

    I just wonder why it's being brought up. Mages are mostly simple, yet automating the damage process just adds so much consistency that it definitely makes a difference in the long run.