Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

Quote from espar91

Quote from MidanLauert

Yeah, that's how buffs work...? Your point doesnt make much sense. Damage his higher with buffs. Do you mean that those buffs are too frequent?

rj: ruthless judgment
cc: charged chop

rj cc rj cc rj cc recover psi rj cc rj cc rj (the part it starts to slow the burst down) cc cc rj cc cc rj cc cc rj cc ...

i don't think i can explain simplier, if you actually play the class, you would understand it better i believe.

cheers

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Oh, Sorry. I totally misunderstood the entire thing. I know this rota and you are right. Thank you for clarifying!

Hello, I don't usually post here, but after witnessing both Warlock/Scout and /Warden in our guild over the last days, I wanted to share my observations.

As Revenant already said, Warlock/Scout seems to have more sustained damage than /Warden, but a lot less AoE.

In my opinion, both Wl/S & Wl/Wd do way too much damage, with /Wd being by far the worst.

This scrutinizer of rofl is from todays run. Lutine as S/W, a pretty strong class that performs good against any other dps (and I can assure you he knows what he's doing). t14 upper, rest t13, t18 bow. Sere on the other hand (Wl/Wd) has body, legs & rings t12, rest t11 and weapon t15.

Moreover, he only has an earth pet, lvl 75 cenedril (old ones) and doesn't play Warlock often, so there's a lot of open potential.

https://gyazo.com/1f13e379316f156166594813e30552b4

It has to be added that Lutine started the run as R/K and switched roughly after first pull (~400-500kk) and was on the phone when we started last one (~250kk). He did the most damage on Nayat (although 2 sec more and Sere would have been on top), were even on Khat + adds, Jerath: Sere 698kk (1x) vs Lutine 819kk (2x), Balton: equal, Astaroth: Sere 1,4kkk vs 960kk.

Hence I'm convinced that Wl/Wd is op as hell and should be substantially nerfed asap.

The large equipment gap between the two only makes it worse.

PS: Xfloxx wasn't there all the time.

Greetings

I dont know anything about this class, but while using Stone Shell as wl/wd, your dmg taken is actually increased by 12% instead of reducing it. Also while in Willpower Construct this amount it quadrupled as it technicly should...but still dmg taken is increased. Please fix.

Cheers!

I just wanna spread some love <333

Quote from melodic

I dont know anything about this class, but while using Stone Shell as wl/wd, your dmg taken is actually increased by 12% instead of reducing it. Also while in Willpower Construct this amount it quadrupled as it technicly should...but still dmg taken is increased. Please fix.

Cheers!

Can confirm. We had the same issue today. I didn't specificly test it so far, but at least it felt like that indeed.

Quote from Sean

Hello, I don't usually post here, but after witnessing both Warlock/Scout and /Warden in our guild over the last days, I wanted to share my observations.

As Revenant already said, Warlock/Scout seems to have more sustained damage than /Warden, but a lot less AoE.

In my opinion, both Wl/S & Wl/Wd do way too much damage, with /Wd being by far the worst.

This scrutinizer of rofl is from todays run. Lutine as S/W, a pretty strong class that performs good against any other dps (and I can assure you he knows what he's doing). t14 upper, rest t13, t18 bow. Sere on the other hand (Wl/Wd) has body, legs & rings t12, rest t11 and weapon t15.

Moreover, he only has an earth pet, lvl 75 cenedril (old ones) and doesn't play Warlock often, so there's a lot of open potential.

https://gyazo.com/1f13e379316f156166594813e30552b4

It has to be added that Lutine started the run as R/K and switched roughly after first pull (~400-500kk) and was on the phone when we started last one (~250kk). He did the most damage on Nayat (although 2 sec more and Sere would have been on top), were even on Khat + adds, Jerath: Sere 698kk (1x) vs Lutine 819kk (2x), Balton: equal, Astaroth: Sere 1,4kkk vs 960kk.

Hence I'm convinced that Wl/Wd is op as hell and should be substantially nerfed asap.

The large equipment gap between the two only makes it worse.

PS: Xfloxx wasn't there all the time.

Greetings

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Wait, do you usually run with only two/three damage dealers? This might explain the differences in perception other guilds find with you so often find in this thread.

Quote from MidanLauert

Quote from Sean

Hello, I don't usually post here, but after witnessing both Warlock/Scout and /Warden in our guild over the last days, I wanted to share my observations.

As Revenant already said, Warlock/Scout seems to have more sustained damage than /Warden, but a lot less AoE.

In my opinion, both Wl/S & Wl/Wd do way too much damage, with /Wd being by far the worst.

This scrutinizer of rofl is from todays run. Lutine as S/W, a pretty strong class that performs good against any other dps (and I can assure you he knows what he's doing). t14 upper, rest t13, t18 bow. Sere on the other hand (Wl/Wd) has body, legs & rings t12, rest t11 and weapon t15.

Moreover, he only has an earth pet, lvl 75 cenedril (old ones) and doesn't play Warlock often, so there's a lot of open potential.

https://gyazo.com/1f13e379316f156166594813e30552b4

It has to be added that Lutine started the run as R/K and switched roughly after first pull (~400-500kk) and was on the phone when we started last one (~250kk). He did the most damage on Nayat (although 2 sec more and Sere would have been on top), were even on Khat + adds, Jerath: Sere 698kk (1x) vs Lutine 819kk (2x), Balton: equal, Astaroth: Sere 1,4kkk vs 960kk.

Hence I'm convinced that Wl/Wd is op as hell and should be substantially nerfed asap.

The large equipment gap between the two only makes it worse.

PS: Xfloxx wasn't there all the time.

Greetings

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Wait, do you usually run with only two/three damage dealers? This might explain the differences in perception other guilds find with you so often find in this thread.

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Doesn't make much difference, mobs and bosses die to fast in both cases. Rofl has not enough hp/def for more than two well equiped dps. Big pulls die instantly & mobs don't live much longer. We had two addphases on last one, so yeah 0-1 with more ppl, not so much impact. In fact, I'm quite certain wl/Wd will be even stronger if fights last longer in the future.

Quote from Sean

Quote from MidanLauert

Wait, do you usually run with only two/three damage dealers? This might explain the differences in perception other guilds find with you so often find in this thread.

Doesn't make much difference, mobs and bosses die to fast in both cases. Rofl has not enough hp/def for more than two well equiped dps. Big pulls die instantly & mobs don't live much longer. We had two addphases on last one, so yeah 0-1 with more ppl, not so much impact. In fact, I'm quite certain wl/Wd will be even stronger if fights last longer in the future.

It makes a hell of a difference. If you have more damage dealers (especially good ones) factors like pacing (and in turn movement speed or range) directly translate to damage dealt by the individuals. Those are not very important when damage dealers needn't compete with each other. The result (dead monsters) is the same, the way (2dds + many supps vs many damage dealers) is very different.

Quote from MidanLauert

Quote from Sean

Doesn't make much difference, mobs and bosses die to fast in both cases. Rofl has not enough hp/def for more than two well equiped dps. Big pulls die instantly & mobs don't live much longer. We had two addphases on last one, so yeah 0-1 with more ppl, not so much impact. In fact, I'm quite certain wl/Wd will be even stronger if fights last longer in the future.

It makes a hell of a difference. If you have more damage dealers (especially good ones) factors like pacing (and in turn movement speed or range) directly translate to damage dealt by the individuals. Those are not very important when damage dealers needn't compete with each other. The result (dead monsters) is the same, the way (2dds + many supps vs many damage dealers) is very different.

In fact we had 2 range dps and a WL/M. Nothing more. So it doesnt make a difference for our comparison. In fact, Scout would be even a bit more weaker than WL/wrd, because the Scout has casts/Channels, which he cannot bring to target with more dps. The WL/wrd would in this situation even more stronger

Kind regards

Quote from Sean

https://gyazo.com/1f13e379316f156166594813e30552b4

Well I think that's a pretty rare raid setup that shouldn't be compared to others, since most raids are completely different with more than 2 dps I guess I agree to MidanLauert and hope, that's not the way you collect all your data related to this balancing... in that case I would at least understand why our experiences with several classes are that different

We had 3 of these new wl today.... I pacefully changed to support and quietly cried the whole run because I couldn't touch a mob

I have a question, why noone ever talk about dwl or dr? How are they in your runs compared to the rest?

Quote from xLutinex

In fact we had 2 range dps and a WL/M.

So one ranged dps was scout? Does scout benefit from warlock 20% elemental dmg increase?

And don't compare class combos like this. It proves nothing at all.

The best way to compare is having 5 or 6 good dps that can compete with each other.

Quote from xLutinex

Quote from MidanLauert

It makes a hell of a difference. If you have more damage dealers (especially good ones) factors like pacing (and in turn movement speed or range) directly translate to damage dealt by the individuals. Those are not very important when damage dealers needn't compete with each other. The result (dead monsters) is the same, the way (2dds + many supps vs many damage dealers) is very different.

In fact we had 2 range dps and a WL/M. Nothing more. So it doesnt make a difference for our comparison. In fact, Scout would be even a bit more weaker than WL/wrd, because the Scout has casts/Channels, which he cannot bring to target with more dps. The WL/wrd would in this situation even more stronger

Kind regards

WL/M specifically boosts elemental damage alongside it's other support skills. Short cooldown burst is already king for trash for ROFL, which the wl excels at (and the wl/wd even moreso). With very little damage dealers to compete in terms of trash this accellerates the issue even further. Scout also doesn't deal much elemental damage outside of specific combinations. That scrutinizer isn't saying as much as you present it to be. It is basically non-applicable to any other guild out there and should therefore not be used for general balancing.

Quote from Sean

Hello, I don't usually post here, but after witnessing both Warlock/Scout and /Warden in our guild over the last days, I wanted to share my observations.

As Revenant already said, Warlock/Scout seems to have more sustained damage than /Warden, but a lot less AoE.

In my opinion, both Wl/S & Wl/Wd do way too much damage, with /Wd being by far the worst.

This scrutinizer of rofl is from todays run. Lutine as S/W, a pretty strong class that performs good against any other dps (and I can assure you he knows what he's doing). t14 upper, rest t13, t18 bow. Sere on the other hand (Wl/Wd) has body, legs & rings t12, rest t11 and weapon t15.

Moreover, he only has an earth pet, lvl 75 cenedril (old ones) and doesn't play Warlock often, so there's a lot of open potential.

https://gyazo.com/1f13e379316f156166594813e30552b4

It has to be added that Lutine started the run as R/K and switched roughly after first pull (~400-500kk) and was on the phone when we started last one (~250kk). He did the most damage on Nayat (although 2 sec more and Sere would have been on top), were even on Khat + adds, Jerath: Sere 698kk (1x) vs Lutine 819kk (2x), Balton: equal, Astaroth: Sere 1,4kkk vs 960kk.

Hence I'm convinced that Wl/Wd is op as hell and should be substantially nerfed asap.

The large equipment gap between the two only makes it worse.

PS: Xfloxx wasn't there all the time.

Greetings

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Hey

this screenshot is unfortunately zero meaningful because here a single target class is compared with an Aoe class which is also good in burst. There were only 2 Damage Dealers in this run and logically the WD/WL has enough possibilities to take advantage of this. You can also see in the picture at the end. Please test this with fair means and take a champion/mage instead of a scout in such a group constellation. Then single Target and Aoe is against single target and Aoe. If you compare the scruti, the screenshot looks the other way around and the class is suddenly completely lost against pdps. And here I would add that the champion only needs approximately the same equipment. Or, as others have written, when there are several damage dealers, the damage is divided quite differently. I am sorry, but that is not proven at all.

Greetings Ryzek

Greetings,

Quote from Ryzek

Hey

this screenshot is unfortunately zero meaningful because here a single target class is compared with an Aoe class which is also good in burst. There were only 2 Damage Dealers in this run and logically the WD/WL has enough possibilities to take advantage of this. You can also see in the picture at the end. Please test this with fair means and take a champion/mage instead of a scout in such a group constellation. Then single Target and Aoe is against single target and Aoe.

Greetings Ryzek

Please explain to me in what universe the scout/warrior is only single target dps..
The s/w has a very good, maybe one of the best aoe dmg comparing to other scouts.
First: your reflected shot makes more dmg than usual and doesnt lose any dmg when reflected.
Second: If you are not even fullbuffed, just with 3min, beserk and the patk buff from shot you do a hell of aoe dmg with your skills - in my experience more than on other scout combinations.

If you think scout/warrior does only single target dmg, I can strongly recommend you to look into your current rota.

Regards Nghty

Quote from Nghty

Greetings,

Quote from Ryzek

Hey

this screenshot is unfortunately zero meaningful because here a single target class is compared with an Aoe class which is also good in burst. There were only 2 Damage Dealers in this run and logically the WD/WL has enough possibilities to take advantage of this. You can also see in the picture at the end. Please test this with fair means and take a champion/mage instead of a scout in such a group constellation. Then single Target and Aoe is against single target and Aoe.

Greetings Ryzek

Please explain to me in what universe the scout/warrior is only single target dps..
The s/w has a very good, maybe one of the best aoe dmg comparing to other scouts.
First: your reflected shot makes more dmg than usual and doesnt lose any dmg when reflected.
Second: If you are not even fullbuffed, just with 3min, beserk and the patk buff from shot you do a hell of aoe dmg with your skills - in my experience more than on other scout combinations.

If you think scout/warrior does only single target dmg, I can strongly recommend you to look into your current rota.

Regards Nghty

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Certainly the Scout/Warrior also makes good Aoe Dmg which is limited compared to the Wl/Wd (Soulcrusher, etc...). If you put Piercing Arrow, Reflected Shot or Hurricane Downpour into large mob groups, then it also makes damage but never compareable with a champ/mage or just the wl/wd. Or even if all your damage increases are out, then you do much less and that's fact. I mean its a scout and besides, the Scout has no element damage. Even for me as a champion with a much worse Gear it is no problem to keep up against a Scout with better equipment and therefore I think you should repeat the Test again with a champ/mage. Furthermore the Wl/wd has elemental damge and the champ/mage, which can be compared much better on a level, is also good in offburst.

Greetings

What do you think about increasing dark heal by dark damage on wl/d?

Quote from Ryzek

I mean its a scout and besides, the Scout has no element damage.

Scout has no element damage? Scout/warlock does element damage, Scout/mage does element damage and Wind Arrows deal element damage on every scout.

Maybe scout does less aoe dmg than other combinations because his aoes are limited but saying scout is doing less damage and then he does no element damage in the next sentence is simply not true!

Greetings

Quote from Nghty

Quote from Ryzek

I mean its a scout and besides, the Scout has no element damage.

Scout has no element damage? Scout/warlock does element damage, Scout/mage does element damage and Wind Arrows deal element damage on every scout.

Maybe scout does less aoe dmg than other combinations because his aoes are limited but saying scout is doing less damage and then he does no element damage in the next sentence is simply not true!

Greetings

scout/warrior deals none and wind arrows deal only phsyical damage...

come on.

Quote from MidanLauert

WL/M specifically boosts elemental damage alongside it's other support skills. Short cooldown burst is already king for trash for ROFL, which the wl excels at (and the wl/wd even moreso). With very little damage dealers to compete in terms of trash this accellerates the issue even further. Scout also doesn't deal much elemental damage outside of specific combinations.

You however forgot to mention the fact that scouts recieve an almost permanent ~20% dmg boost from warped charge, which wl/wd in particular does not profit from at all, using only skills without a scaling cast time. *

The debuff for elemental dmg is not always on every mob, especially not those who get pulverized within less than 2 seconds and certainly not on any mobs during big pulls, which still die wihtin a few seconds.

And we all know that the majority of dmg is dealt to trashmobs in rofl. So dont think a wl/m would shift the scrutinizer in favor of a wl instead of a scout, it does not.

Cheers!

Edit: * Well, except Weakening Weave Curse, to be precise...

Quote from MidanLauert

Quote from Nghty

Scout has no element damage? Scout/warlock does element damage, Scout/mage does element damage and Wind Arrows deal element damage on every scout.

Maybe scout does less aoe dmg than other combinations because his aoes are limited but saying scout is doing less damage and then he does no element damage in the next sentence is simply not true!

Greetings

scout/warrior deals none...

come on.

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Scout/warrior deals element damage with wind arrow.. Just check for yourself on balton - thats why they are there..

Greetings

Quote from Nghty

Quote from MidanLauert

scout/warrior deals none...

come on.

Scout/warrior deals element damage with wind arrow.. Just check for yourself on balton - thats why they are there..

Greetings

Interesting. The tooltip says otherwise, but ingame it's elemental. Interesting. Time for a bug report!

Btw we tested all. Scout/w and WL/wrd in all situations. Burst aoe, sustain aoe, sustain single target and burst single target. The WL/warden was always! on top

It is kinda funny how ppl think WL/wrd is weak. If you can play this class, this is absolute OP. It is also kinda funny that nearly all saying WL/wrd is weak and nearly all mdps playing WL/wrd or WL/s. Nothing more to comment from mine. Only one more fact. A Scout (me) dealing 150kk+ with a snipe fullbuffed on bosses had no chance against the new WL... We will see what changes are coming and how the devs think about the class

Warlock/Scout

If you have 0 Focus every skill (no matter what resource they use) is dealing 0 damage. (e.g Soul Crusher, Severed Consciousness etcc..) and not only Dark Rain (as it should be).

Greetings.

Quote from xMisox

Quote from Ryzek

Have you ever seen a champion? xD

Greetings

I really dont understand why are you straight flaming the mdps and arguing with empty words still you've got no other way to arguing on a normal way xD so and when you play the wl/wd as a support you should never do dmg because youve got a aggro multiplier on every damage skill.... also sorry but this post are for me empty words not more...

Good Night &Ryzek +1

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2 Questions . Where is Melodic flaming the Warlock in this post ? Why are this only empty words for you ?

I am a bit confused as he is only pointing out facts ( that Wl has by far the best Group Support Kit , combined with good Dmg can be a bit too much utility)

Greetings