Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

    https://gyazo.com/ac7b95e6bda627a320d504477ff725de


    I was rogue/champ, snickars was rogue/warrior and nyex rogue/priest. 4 dps in group.

    You need to reduce my damage by ~1,4kkk because I made b3. Rogue/champ is for me one of the best rogues


    Kind regards

    Quote from xLutinex

    I was rogue/champ, snickars was rogue/warrior and nyex rogue/priest. 4 dps in group.

    You need to reduce my damage by ~1,4kkk because I made b3. Rogue/champ is for me one of the best rogues

    Some additional information: Gear from Lutine and Snickars (also from Persil) are comparable. Nyex has a bit worse gear and hasn´t been playing rogue that long. No offense :*

    Quote from Snickers0815
    Quote from xLutinex

    I was rogue/champ, snickars was rogue/warrior and nyex rogue/priest. 4 dps in group.

    You need to reduce my damage by ~1,4kkk because I made b3. Rogue/champ is for me one of the best rogues

    Some additional information: Gear from Lutine and Snickars (also from Persil) are comparable. Nyex has a bit worse gear and hasn´t been playing rogue that long. No offense :*

    Buff Rogue/priest! Or maybe buff my internet both would be nice !


    Snickers you are the biggest 31iger. no offense :*

    Wanna get better ? Just play leather ツ

    Like 2

    The only important thing here... which mage was Persil? #Makemagegreatagain! :D

    So where is "perfectly balanced"? 1,5kkk more than mage? And where is r/p on scr? Dps on r/p is really bad on my mind. If my memory is good r/p will get next nerf yea?


    For example, that is our scr.

    Full rofl:

    https://ibb.co/xHmMN1k

    Merkur - r/d

    Hanzou - r/w

    The same gear


    R/w (Ramer) vs random party.

    https://ibb.co/hK1W9w0



    Quote from xLutinex
    Quote from deszcz2

    What we want to say is that we compare rouges betwen rouges and in this comparison r/w and r/d are much more superior than other combos (maybe r/wd also as Lutine mentioned) and that should be fixed.

    Oh and to say so, we compare full run dmg output not one single burst on mobs/bosses.

    First: I compare single boss and full run damage.

    Second: rogue/warden was 1 example. Did you ever played rogue/priest or rogue/champ for example. Rogue/Champ is maybe worst aoe class in my example but it is still good


    I play all classes except auto-attack classes. That is why I cannot say anything about /Magen and /warlock

    "Rogue/Champ is maybe worst aoe class in my example but it is still good", he is bad, yea... Maybe r/ch should be nerf too, i didn't played on r/ch because i dont have weapon, but if he is dps-support, dps on r/ch should be nerf


    "Second: rogue/warden was 1 example"

    Please compare r/w vs r/wd.


    My question:

    Did you ever played r/wrl? R/s? R/m? R/k? Where are they on scr?


    Second question:

    If on fast runs (where r/w cant get enough time to full burst) he is the best dps (Lutine have better gear than Snickars) so what will happen if r/w will have enough time for that?


    Lutine, maybe we can go rofl together? Weekend? That can be really interesting and after that we will get good comparison about rogues and different gameplays.

    Thanks for that run! It shows not only that r/w is... like we said a little op relative to other combinations, but also r/ch is not bad. I wish it was a r/wd in party to compare :/

    1.5.kk over mage and 1,6kk over r/p - it confirms our words.

    And you proved that even on fast runs (like yours) where mobs/bosses are killed really fast - r/w is dealing too much.

    Probably here will be also (if not i will upload it then) scruts from other raids on rofl to compare what is output in normal raids where mobs are not killed so fast. And there difference between r/w and r/p is more like 3.5kk...


    Regards!

    Quote from Merkur

    R/w (Ramer) vs random party.

    https://ibb.co/hK1W9w0

    What you forgot to mention here is that:

    a) Elprese and Johnkopytko did 0 dmg at b3

    b) Snickars came to b2 and was afk before b4

    c) Ramer has 2x t16 weapons and ultimate gear one or more tiers higher (t13) than anyone else in that run.


    So as long as you make balancing propositions based on such scrutinizers, I would not say that they are valid.


    Cheers!:thumbup:


    Edit:

    Quote from Merkur

    1,5kkk more than mage

    Note that this raid had full pdps support and zero mdps support, as well as m/d being a rather weak mage combo afaik. So you can reduce the rogues overall dmg by ~15% to adjust for support differences. Does it still look that bad then?!

    Think! It's not illegal yet.

    I'm just here for the drama.

    Edited once, last by melodic ().

    Like 2

    I will not discuss details any further, the only thing I wanted to express that you seem to disregard certain factors to support your point, solely seen by you using that scrutinizer from a random run. Suchs screenshots just say absolutely nothing about class balancing and only are misleading.

    Period.


    One more edit:

    Also please note that this thread is not supposed to be that much about discussions on who is right and who is wrong, but to give feedback. So this back and forth about rogues might be more distracting for the devs than actually helping. Saying that you made different observations than others and what they are and under what circumstances on a certain topic should be enough....&)

    Think! It's not illegal yet.

    I'm just here for the drama.

    Edited once, last by melodic ().

    Like 2
    Quote from melodic

    I will not discuss details any further, the only thing I wanted to express that you seem to disregard certain factors to support your point, solely seen by you using that scrutinizer from a random run. Suchs screenshots just say absolutely nothing about class balancing and only are misleading.

    Period.

    It was just one of the cases, thats why we presents scrut from our normal guild run on which there is no mages at all, rogues are on the same eq level and mobs are not dying really fast. If its still "nothing" and is misleading... i dont know what it means for you ;)


    edit to your edit:

    Agree, thats why i think those comparisons as we did can help to developers to make proper decisions.

    Regards!

    Quote from wiedzmin97

    And you proved that even on fast runs (like yours) where mobs/bosses are killed really fast - r/w is dealing too much.

    Our runs are probably faster than others, but I was able to do my complete rota on almost every mob. It wouldn´t have made much difference if the mob had lived a little longer.


    Quote from wiedzmin97

    1.5.kk over mage and 1,6kk over r/p - it confirms our words.

    As melodic said, the group had pure pdd support. So it is not surprising that the mage does less damage than the pdds. And as I said, the rogue/priest had worse gear and was less experienced. But we can also compare /priest with /warrior again, where both rogues are equally experienced.

    Quote from wiedzmin97

    I wish it was a r/wd in party to compare

    We don´t have that many rogues. We can also make the comparison in the future.

    Quote from Merkur

    Did you ever played r/wrl? R/s? R/m? R/k? Where are they on scr?

    Personally I have already tested all rogue combinations. Unfortunately, we don´t have many rogues in the guild that we cannot compare all combinations at the same time in one run.

    If my observations are different i should say why. I agree with you, that is why i propose go rofl together, then we can compare rogues + our gameplay. Maybe my feeligs are bad, maybe i have a right, maybe not. Connected run (Lutine, Nyex, Snickars, Merkur, Hanzou, Ramer) propaply will get solution this problem. In my opinion r/w and r/d are too strong, we can come on r/d (Merkur) and r/w (Hanzou, Ramer), you can come on r/p, r/wd, r/ch. If our point of view is bad then we are lost, but if we will do more dmg, then we will find op rogue. This idea is really interesting for me.


    "Personally I have already tested all rogue combinations. Unfortunately, we don´t have many rogues in the guild that we cannot compare all combinations at the same time in one run."

    So we can go together <3

    There are some fundamental problems concerning the balance from the basis of the instance of rofl. It is a bad basis to try and balance around as damage and survivability can heavily vary between players due to differing styles of tanking/supporting, as well as the randomness within bosses and trash themselves.

    a) Damage will vary depending on content.

    Boss 1: Area of Effect classes are incredibly favourable to it, falsifying the actual damage dealt between bosskillers and trashers.
    Boss 2: Circle randomness can easily skew the recorded damage into either direction
    Boss 3: You go in and you deal damage. Otherwise it's 0.
    Boss 4: Not really random, more tab-luck.
    Boss 5: Depending on events and who gets them, damage can be really random.
    Trash: Depending on the confidence and ability of tanks, classes may feel very strong or useless.

    b) Playstyle is everything.

    If you have a tank that just steadily runs and pulls one mob by another, killing most of the monsters while being on the run, classes like scouts and champions have the upper hand in dealing damage, simply due to their damage being consistant and less burst based on monsters. If your tank likes to group up enemies because they can handle the heat and make sure their party doesn't die (as in, having enough crowd control in party to protect everyone), classes like the mage or warden will excel due to their high burst aoe type damage.


    c) Supports are far more important than given credit.

    We all know the warlock, but did you know that you can get an additional 17% multiplicative and another 24.5% multiplicative damage by just having a S/P and a Ch/D in your party? Depending on your supports though, burst classes may be favoured or DPS classes may be on top.


    d) Damage isn't everything.

    Especially when you come into the very high end of ROFL where most of your party has their golden gear and seeks to complete the instance for mostly income, Utility becomes much more of a factor in farming the instance consistant than damage. If you can prevent a wipe with a clutch cyclone you just saved yourself and the party 3-5 minutes, contributing to efficiency much more than another, higher DPS class would.


    Conclusion:
    Player gathered data that does not take the difference of tanks, supports and randomness into account is factually useless in determining balance between classes. What may seem overpowered in one group may just suck hard in others. The variance is so big that there is no conclusive evidence to be gathered from posting random scrutinizers without proper context.

    The team does a fantastic job in balancing and their efforts are often overlooked within the community. Generally speaking, the availability between classes and the feeling that you can be useful with practically any class is remarkable. Yes, statistical outliers happen, but generally speaking, they are few and far in between.

    RW looks the best cos RD RCH buff him more than yourself


    Maybe go all first run RW (can compare how gear affects for dps) and next add one r(buffer)

    Last run in my guild rw and wdwl had similar dps (similar gear)

    • Changed Khat in Realm of Forgotten Legends Hard Mode to electrify everyone in room if someone gets catched by a small lightning.

    Idk what that electrify thing is but I really hope you fix those small lightnings bug before applying whatever this change is.

    • Changed Khat in Realm of Forgotten Legends Hard Mode to electrify everyone in room if someone gets catched by a small lightning.

    i like this idea very much but if so damage would maybe have to be reduced or change it so that you can live at least 2 mess ups at same time? I dont know how to change it to give a little buffer for the bugged circles but the idea to have party take damage if someone screws up is great

    Quote from Madox
    • Changed Khat in Realm of Forgotten Legends Hard Mode to electrify everyone in room if someone gets catched by a small lightning.

    Idk what that electrify thing is but I really hope you fix those small lightnings bug before applying whatever this change is.

    I totally agree

    The idea is ok but when u only can see the circles like 0,1s before the dmg sometimes this would be horrible

    Don't see nyex as a good dps in my screen.... He had 2000-5000 ping whole time. Ty

    Quote from Merkur

    If my observations are different i should say why. I agree with you, that is why i propose go rofl together, then we can compare rogues + our gameplay. Maybe my feeligs are bad, maybe i have a right, maybe not. Connected run (Lutine, Nyex, Snickars, Merkur, Hanzou, Ramer) propaply will get solution this problem. In my opinion r/w and r/d are too strong, we can come on r/d (Merkur) and r/w (Hanzou, Ramer), you can come on r/p, r/wd, r/ch. If our point of view is bad then we are lost, but if we will do more dmg, then we will find op rogue. This idea is really interesting for me.


    "Personally I have already tested all rogue combinations. Unfortunately, we don´t have many rogues in the guild that we cannot compare all combinations at the same time in one run."

    So we can go together <3

    I will not run random with any random tank I don't and cannot hold aggro, If one run is supposed to you for "the truth" ;)

    Hi Dev !!!

    As far as I can see, the classes are much richer now. Many classes for different options. suitable for gamers' gameplay.

    But I still want more fun from this game. My question is: The classes specializing in pDmg like W, S, R, Wd, K, Ch. Some have been converted to mDmg such as W (W / M), S (S / Wl), Wd (Wd / D), K (K / M). So where are R and Ch classes? As well as mDmg classes like M, Wl, P, Dr. Only P and Dr are converted to pDmg (P / W, Dr / W). So where are M and Wl?

    I want the balance above all classes. And I hope you guys have more great ideas with the game. Help our players always find new and interesting.

    Cordially greet !

    regarding latest notes

    "Added entrance cooldown debuff to Jerath event in Realm of Forgotten Legends Hard Mode that lasts for 180 seconds. Jerath nows gains 8% physical attack everytime a player participates to the event, and gains 8% physical damage everytime selected player refuse to participate. Every creature killed will inflict 2% damage to tactic object."


    I hope the group will not killed, if you only have 2 dps in group and both was in event room and have cooldown. That would be a very disappointing change, if we are forced to have more than 2 dps if we are only 6 ppl online



    The change to the creatures is very good. Now the group can do something while 1 person is in event room 👍

    S/Wl:

    • Changed Venomous Snipe to do not provide poison damage anymore, increased Snipe damage increment to 24% from 8%.
    • Reduced Poisonous Will poison damage gain to 118% from 125%.
    • Increased Elemental Discipline focus recovery chance to 35% from 30%.


    This looks pretty good imo. The burst dps was bit too much before and focus sustain bit too less, so this will fix both I guess. I could imagine the 15% less poison damage will matter in trash by using 3min cooldowns, but we will see.



    Other stuff:

    Quote from Patchnotes

    (...) Every creature killed will inflict 2% damage to tactic object.

    I also appreciate the changes to Jerath event, finally killing mobs is relevant now (if I get this right). So ppl now kill mobs constantly to damage the boss as well? This could bring some more dynamics to the fight and require some positioning skills I guess. Sounds good.


    The cooldown could also make the whole thing much more teamwork related as well, hope it works as intended.


    Quote from Patchnotes

    Added physical attack, attack speed and bad luck aura to Nayat, Siddartha and Krishna in Realm of Forgotten Legends Hard Mode.

    What is this aura? Something that happens if someone missclicked a debuff that makes the specific boss stronger to force the party to communicate better and coordinate the clicks? Appreciate this if I get it right.


    Quote from Patchnotes

    Changed Balton to re-apply poison every 3 seconds instead of 5 in Realm of Forgotten Legends Hard Mode

    So this should implement a dps and heal check I guess. It already was ok to me, but we will see how this evolves.


    In our latest runs I realized that Balton had a quite long immune phase after respawning the first time. Can you somehow reduce this, since it's annoying not to be able to aggro him asap as a tank and in some cases he runs straight to a supporter and onehits him. Thats kinda rng and shouldn't happen imo.

    Quote from Zyrex

    In our latest runs I realized that Balton had a quite long immune phase after respawning the first time. Can you somehow reduce this, since it's annoying not to be able to aggro him asap as a tank and in some cases he runs straight to a supporter and onehits him. Thats kinda rng and shouldn't happen imo.

    From what i have observed after balton "respawns" when u do the Map event right , he is immune until he hits a Player once . (correct me if im wrong )

    So just let him hit one player and it should be fine ( if he gets oneshot he should use some dmg reduce obviously)


    Greetings

    If you identify a UFO as a UFO , then it becomes an FO. Unless it has landed , then it is simply an -> O

    Edited 2 times, last by Cruvor ().