Classes balance / rework

Quote from Rakot_Hades

"Scouts do best burst dps?" I never said it, no need to exaggerate, I said scouts do more than champs in burst which is true;

for 10 seconds...

Just for clarification: Champs/Rogue CAN tank with unskilled shield form.

You should think about your suggestions and should know, what happens if it would be a push for something. You are the example for a champ. If you play a warrior or mage or whatever, I would have said the same, that there is no need for it in my opionion, because the raid overall damaget is too high atm. And yes, it is because of the maybe only 5 classes in the game which are doing a lot of more damage than all other.

To force the people more group play, the overall damage should be nerfed

In my opinion playernet should focus on classcombinations, that are not used at all in instances first.

There are alot possibilities like buffing certain elite skills, which could make those combos more usefull and will result in a much appreciated varity of different classes during a raid instance. It's the multiclass system anyways that is the outstanding point for runes of magic.

Balancing is as old as mmorpgs itself. And i am confident to say that playernet won't solve this problem. I am pretty sure they will cause just another imbalance. Thus people will adapt to the new situation in a certain way which will cause situations like in tikal or inferno where you had alot of scouts, or alot of mages, in general alot of range dps classes.

And the reason of it is complex. Often it is the design of an instance like amount of trash or boss tactics that promotes on class over another.

I play since the open beta. And i was always pissed that devs only know one answer to a imbalance. They just nerf the strongest class by reducing passives skills or whatever.

I suggest as i ve said before. Leave the champ as it is, and buff the other classes.

OR just delete the Zwergenbier (idk the english translation of it)

About the Champion class there seems to be two opinions. One its OP and the other its good as it is. Personally i dont see any OP skills in the class line. Its a very flexible class which has a lot of potential and that makes it fun to play!

So what makes the champion OP is broken stats like Arcadia-Ability, Pain of Tikal, Pain of Divinty etc.(Strength, Strength, Stamina, Physical Attack).

This class is able to shift its stats to boost others (Convert Strength into Stam) which makes it flexible. (Tanking, DPSing)

Giving it 500+ Strength and an extra Stamina boost on one stat is not what the class is balanced for.

About the AOEs. They have long cool downs and that is what makes them balanced. You cant spam them. Rune Overloads uptime could always be extended by abilitys like Death Arrives which was never the issue. The problem here is that we have items like Experimental Dwarven Ale which extends the period of Rune Overload even further. Extra attack speed on our gear combined with attack potions etc. also leads to an almost neverending rage generation which feeds the champ abliitys.weapons.

Quote from MDNCITAJ

I play since the open beta. And i was always pissed that devs only know one answer to a imbalance. They just nerf the strongest class by reducing passives skills or whatever.

I suggest as i ve said before. Leave the champ as it is, and buff the other classes.

I agree with Kaly 100% on this, exactly what I worry they will do, and this is why same as Kaly I suggest to buff other classes! ROFL for the most part does is teamwork based ini, so raid damage is not an issue imho.

Buff other classes - for example there are so many combos yet so few are used - for example wd/w is best dps wd - see if can bring wd/s to become little stronger, or wd/m, same for rogues, r/m is best, optimize r/wl, has a remarkable potential but still couple skills are based on ma and not pa, r/s needs buff to be compared with r/m.

I said it many times before, at the moment there is good variety of classes present, I see mages, warriors, wardens, rogues, champs, knights, warlocks, but usually only a particular combo - expand on this, 1st buff others then see how the balance looks like, but keep the classes that are already doing good constant for now, I think that way would be much easier to achieve so called class balance and not just nerf top few with passives (see scout blood arrow nerf after inferno) and say gg.

Forgot to mention something I find funny from you Kaly - "OR just delete the Zwergenbier (idk the english translation of it)" I call it beer and delete beer from a German sounds funny to me Anyway just a little joke haha

Quote from Redclaw

About the AOEs. They have long cool downs and that is what makes them balanced. You cant spam them. Rune Overloads uptime could always be extended by abilitys like Death Arrives which was never the issue. The problem here is that we have items like Experimental Dwarven Ale which extends the period of Rune Overload even further. Extra attack speed on our gear combined with attack potions etc. also leads to an almost neverending rage generation which feeds the champ abliitys.

AOE only really matter in trash mobs or adds during boss - idea that champ turn on aoe and then it does all the work is wrong, the aoe is in fact only a small part of overall dps of the champ on a boss, unless again there are a lot of mobs to kill, but this is champs specialty! AOEs have 1 min cd and rage pots have cd too, so you have to be selective where to use it. In ROFL, 1st boss 2nd room bunch of mobs champ burns with aoes - huge extra damage; 2nd boss, adds phase before crystal same thing tank groups, champ burns mobs - huge extra damage, last boss bulls, tanks collects champ aoe burns - see half of the champ damage from the whole ini is from these three! I can assure if these were not present, w/m would be top dps at least in my guild, sadly w/m often is top dps even with these events but that's prob cuz I suck as a champ

I play champ/rogue because I have sta/hp gear in addition to my dps gear, so when needed I could swap and tank or offtank, but not tank with same dps gear - with dps gear I die easily, its not true you can tank in dps gear with shield 0 on ch/r unless as I stated earlier boss drops really fast ( in that case alot of other classes that have pd skills will be fine too). What that means is I can eaily go wd/w - my favorite class, and do exactly same but have WAY more burst damage than ch/r has. BUT I will lose aoes and the way rofl is set up, we get mobs in packs and if don't kill fast they do ALOT of damage on groups, this is the main reason I stay ch/r. I enjoy playing w/wd as well, but same issue no aoes and then raid suffer if we cant kill packs of mobs. Another guild has scouts that can do nice burst aoe damage from far! that's why they think mobs die quick - it is not as easy if you lack aoes, my guild does not have scouts at the moment and champ provides much needed aoe to speed things up.

Quote from Rakot_Hades

...I play champ/rogue because I have sta/hp gear in addition to my dps gear, so when needed I could swap and tank or offtank, but not tank with same dps gear - with dps gear I die easily, its not true you can tank in dps gear with shield 0 on ch/r ...

Sorry?

A champ, yes i know it from my own perspective of my own gear, can have like 900k+ HP and ~2kk def in FULL dps gear and without skilled shield form. And you will really say to me, that you cannot tank with such stats? O.o

If this is really the fact, that you can't with that or don't know what to do then: ok, sorry. "You can't" but "I can".

But ok. Lets push all other classes. It's ok and fine for me. I want to have same def as a scout and mage pls. would be nice :). All should vote for it

Quote from Rakot_Hades

can champ tank in dps gear - if answer is yes (some bosses die fast) - same is true with wd/w I can give 100%

Since it was lost during cleanup:

I am looking foward to see proof here that wd/wr can tank same as ch/r in dps gear and still deal considerable dmg throughout the instance.

Proof for ch/r tanking entire RoFL in dps gear and 0 points in SF is on its way.

And please no blaming on "strong new gear". This observation has been made for months, even in gorge and also in RoFL without any new items.

Cheers!

Hi all,

I thought more on the dps & tanking abilities of a champ and here is one idea to perhaps consider (please note it may shift balance in favor of pure champ dps but would sacrifice champ survivability to maintain balance):

1) One of the reasons champs are relatively tanky is even dps use of Shield form (usually at 0) since it gives strong physical defense boost that champs need for tanking. The reason for that is because probability to trigger the chain drive event from normal hit that makes rune pulse (main dps skill of champ) an instant spell is significantly higher compared to when champ is outside of the shield form (either no shield form or disassembly mode).

2) Therefore, one possible option is to make the probability of the chain drive similar for all 3 forms (shield form, normal, disassembly). One may consider the 3 probabilities to be slightly different to maintain balance (slightly higher in shield form, norm without any form, slightly lower in disassembly mode), but if again would be much higher (as the case now) in the shield form, dps will continue to just use it as is

Possible outcome:

What that will accomplish is champs who want to maximize damage will not use shield form, that will significantly decrease their survivability (no extra physical defense for example) but as an offset there will be boost in dps (higher power attack since no loss of str from a shield form or more str if using disassembly mode - but then losing even more sta). Their defense without the shield form then would be similar to for example w/m and will be significantly less than wd (who has pd skill) or s/wd. I suspect the change will likely bring dps closer to other sustained classes, still have nice aoe capabilities (champ specialty) and similar or even smaller physical defense as those classes.

That change will also allow champs who want to tank to max their shield form to get more tankier stats.

I also want to note that for example wd has somewhat similar idea in terms of the tank/dps options, just done differently:

for dps, usually you use Oak walker pet that gives you very significant crit damage increase OR:

for tank, use spirit of the oak that gives strong phys def increase and parry - coupled with briar shield brings pd of wd closer to that of a champ in shield form.

The analogy thus is Oak walker <--> no shield form; spirit of the oak <-->shield form; therefore, the change I list in 2 in my opinion will make similar dps/tank options between the wd class and champ class.

Just my humble opinion after playing for many years on official and here as a wd and as a champ as dps as well as a tank.

Kind regards,

Rakot

Quote from Rakot_Hades

Therefore, one possible option is to make the probability of the chain drive similar for all 3 forms (shield form, normal, disassembly). One may consider the 3 probabilities to be slightly different to maintain balance (slightly higher in shield form, norm without any form, slightly lower in disassembly mode), but if again would be much higher (as the case now) in the shield form, dps will continue to just use it as is

A change like this would not really help anything at all.

Apart from Ch/R almost no champ-combination is as OP as the Ch/R is, due to the elite-skills it provides.

One of these is a permanent 50% boost of patk, resulting ins Ch/R permanently having more patk than any other class in the game. And this lead in patk is just merely decreased by using shield form.

So even with the change you proposed, everyone would still play in shieldform, having more patk than any other pdps combination and the highest chance to trigger chain drive.

Also this would nerf champs that are not Ch/R and rely more on disassembly mode harder than the (problematic) Ch/R itself.

Additionally as Ch/R you have an non-rage-based spam-skill with Shadowstab, that does not interfere with your rage-management for AoE's. No other champ-combination has something like it in this extend.

I believe if you want to balance out champions, you should focus on these aspects, that have no impact on all other champ-combinations.

Cheers!

Edit: What I forgot:

Concerning Wardens, the 10% crit-dmg increase ffrom oak-walkers is way less than "significant" with all the other critdmg-bonuses players have nowadays. Base +30%, armor sets +12% +25%, rings 2x ~85%, pet 10%, makes a total of +237% if im correct, plus those which I possibly forgot.

Adding 10% from the oak-walker makes an effecive increase of crit-dmg by 4,2%.

Not significant at all, compared to what champions get while playing in shieldform.

Also wardens-pets can die, disappear on phoenix-trigger, can pull aggro and have more minor disadvantages, thus making them practicly not comparable to champions different forms, especially for tanking, pointed out in this thread.