Class Balance - "Madness and stupidity"

Merkur · 19 Apr 2021

(I am setting up a new topic because I don't want the post to be lost in the general topic regarding balance)

...A few words about balance...

At the beginning, I would like to point out that my statement is not intended to offend or hurt anyone.

For a long time I have had the impression that the class balance is not as leading as it should be, in short it is bad. Before the class balance, each class had one or two right combinations, for example: the only right rogue was a rogue / mage. Whether the right combinations of individual classes were well-balanced against each other is another question ... I don't think so ...

However, there was a light of hope, a new balance was to come, a new era, something wonderful, a patch that would make whatever you play it will be alright about your dps. In a word, whether you play a rogue / mage or a rogue/ XXX, you will do similar damage on the scale of the entire instance, so it really depends on you what you play, you choose what you play with the most pleasure and you are not punished with a worse result on the scale of the instance because your combination is weaker than others combinations. Conversely, you don't get better results on the instance scale because your combinationn is stronger than others.

In my opinion, it has been a long time since the beginning of the new balance. The new instance was introduced to the game at the end of April last year, the balance began in middle June last year. This means that 10 months have passed. ALMOST A YEAR! I would like to summarize my observations on this subject (you don't have to agree with them, it's just my point of view).

...My point of view...

As I wrote before, there was only one valid combination of a specific class in the past, now the case is that (as my guildmate put it) there are seasons. Seasons when specific class combinations are the only right ones for a long time (I'm looking at doing a top result on an instance), there are some little nerfs of this class, that class, another class, some boosts along the way.

They are often not very accurate, something is boosted too much, something nerfed too weak. Then someone realizes that some combinations are beating too weakly and a decision is made that they need to be reinforced and they get a big boost and a new season begins. During this time, some nerfs again, some boosts there, nerfs too small for those combinations that were too weak before, but now they are too strong. And again, we find something that beats too weakly, boost it strongly, a new season begins ... ..

...Present Balance idea...:

1) Find the strongest combination of the class and give him nerf
2) Find the weakest / weak combination and give him a big boost
3) Leave the already weakened and often unplayable combination from the first point
4) Give two medium nerfs for a reinforced combination even though it requires two very large nerfs
5) Repeat steps 2-4 for each class: mage, rogue, warrior etc, and set a new power threshold for the party.
6) Go to the second point

Briefly summarizing, at the beginning there is a combination that just beat too hard, it gets a nerf so big that it often gets one of the weaker combinations of the class, then there is ANOTHER weak combination , give it a big kick to catch up with the top of the class. The combinations is too strong. This is an important moment, the combination should be nerfed to the level of the remaining combinations, unfortunately this is often not the case. Usually the combinations is insufficiently nerfed. Then other weak combinations are found and it is boosted so that it catches up with the one you just created. Boosts too much, then nerfs too weak and so on. Finally, it looks like new, stronger combinations are being created and the power of the party is going up all the time. What is happening like this?

First of all, what I wrote about, there are seasons during which you play for example. r / wrl, then r / wd, then r / d, then r / w, then r / ch, now r / s. I translate on rogues because I know them best. The second effect of all this is that, as I wrote, the power of the party grows (not through better equipment, through balance) and at the same time the endgame content stands still and is simply less demanding, that's why str / str from the highest instance in the game can be purchased for 1k dias, what is funny.

Additionally, there is frustration, you make very good equipment, invest dias in high tiers and you do it to get better results. You found yourself (like me) a rogue who you play best and you would like to play with him and have better results because you have better eq. Meanwhile, because of the wrong balance, there are still combinations that beat harder, much harder. A perfect example is r / s. I went to the r / d instance (which not so long ago was a really good rogue) and what turned out? Patch 10.4.0.4007, r / s rebuild. And suddenly someone with a similar eq as me scored almost 3 times as much as me, and two people with equipment twice as small as mine also scored a lot more than me. I have gold gear from rofl in t13, one of them had red from a rofl in t9-10. How is it possible? The combination was stronger 2-3 times than the others. How? How did this happen? Nobody tested it? Skill values were drawn by a randomizing machine? I understand to make a combination that is too strong, it is not easy to rebuild an existing combination in such a way that it is well-balanced. However, I believe the error values are in the order of a maximum of 30%, not 200-300%. As for r / s, today, I don't know exactly when patch 10.4.0.4007 came out, but it's been 6 patches already and it's still too strong. In a moment it will be put aside, it will not be moved and the fun will start again, we will find a new combination that is too weak (as previously mentioned r / s)

My proposition:

As Tywin Lannister would say, "Madness and Stupidity." I believe that this is a vicious circle from which to go. The mistake was made at the very beginning, we already had some balance, somehow this endgame looked like. Instead of turning everything upside down, those combination should be balanced with respect to each other, for example the only right r / m in relation to the s / wd, etc. Then, within each class, introduce one by one combinations one by one. Rebuild the rogue / warrior and balance it to the level of r / m (I'm talking about the result in the instance scale), then if it succeeds, introduce for example r / s and balance it to the level of r / m ... Etc. in relation to the predetermined determinant. Unfortunately, it did not happen and it became a brothel, it is not known what is the determinant of a depression. For example, I will go r / p now and hit less than I would have captured on r / s. The question is, does it mean that r / s is too strong? Or maybe the r / p is too weak? This question accompanies me throughout the balance. Who to relate to? What beats right?

I observe the balance thread and see such a tendency that someone who knows magicians says that, for example, some rogue beats too hard, or vice versa, some scouts says that some magician beats too hard. Usually the people who speak have no idea about the second class, not always, we have people like Lutine here who play and magicians and rogues and scouts and something else and cover the subject. But I think it's high time to change this because it is full of misinformation and class interests. When someone plays only a rogue like me and embraces him very well, sometimes you fall into such a trap that you do not see that your combination is actually too strong and you say to yourself: "I have a good grip on the class, I beat well". Yes, this is true, but not always and sometimes it actually turns out that the combination was a bit too strong.

My suggestion is to change the way of balancing, I would like it not to turn out that when the new instance is released, the balance will still not be finished, and in my opinion this is what it promises. I propose to break balance topic down into separate class topics. Where everyone will speak within a given class, a separate topic for rogues about rogues and a separate topic for magicians about magicians. Let the creators of the balance choose one correct combination from each class. For example for the r / d rogue, for the m / d mage etc, they will balance them against each other. And then separately let me balance the rest of the rogue's combinations to the r / d level, and the rest of the mage's combinations to the m / d level. And when I, as a rogue, know (because it will be decided) how much more or less he should do, I will be able to give meaningful feedback because I will have a point to refer to.

...There is a beautiful slogan: "stop boost, start nerf"...

...So as not to be groundless, example...:

Patch 10.2.1.1000
- Rebuild r/wrl, he was OP
Patch 10.2.1.1252
- Fixed Rogue/Warlock skill Wound Attack extra damages weren’t reduced. = REPAIR
7 patches without any changes, but okey that was start of balance.
Patch 10.2.1.1261
- Fixed Dark Soul Assail wasn’t disappearing on some cases. = REPAIR
6 patches without any changes, after:
Patch 10.2.1.2006
- Changed Dark Soul Smelt to inflict damage based on attacker hand. = NOT NERF / NOT BOOST in my opinion, because that was the time when r/wrl change raksha dagger replaced with gold rofl dagger, damage was +- the same in my memory is good
- Changed Soul Stab to inflict damage up to 3 targets within 50 radius with 20% damage decrement for each extra target = BIG BOOST on trash
- (R/wrl is still OP in this moment)
2 patches without any changes, after:
Patch 10.2.2.1000
- Removed Soul Stab damage decrement for each extra target. = BOOST
- Removed cooldown of Soul Agility, increased it’s duration to 900 seconds. = VERY BIG BOOST!!!
- (R/wrl is totally OP in this moment)
7 patches without any changes, after:
Patch 10.2.2.4000:
- Reduced Soul Agility physical attack increment to 8%. = NERF
- (R/wrl still is totally OP in this moment)
10 patches without any changes, after:
Patch 10.2.4.2002
- Increased Dark Soul Assail dark damage increment to 54%. = SMALL BOOST
- Reduced Soul Agility duration to 30 seconds, increased cooldown to 90 seconds, increased dark damage increment to 54%. = BIG NERF
- (R/wrl still should be OP but no, in this moment he is strong like the beginning, but in this moment he is no OP, he is weaker than any rogues)
- (That is end r/wrl season)
Patch 10.2.4.2005
- Increased Dark Soul Assail dark damage gain to 75%, reduced active dark damage gain to 35%. = NOT NERF / NOT BOOST
7 patches without any changes, after:
- Increased Dark Soul Smelt damage to 144% from 116%. = BOOST
- Changed Eye of the Darkness to do not reduce damage of Shadowstab, Low Blow and Wound Attack any more. = BIG BOOST
- (R/wrl is totally OP in comparison again r/wrl from the beggining (when he was OP) but in this moment he is still too weak)
1 patches without any changes, after:
Patch 10.4.0.3000:
- Rebuild R/wrl = BIG BOOST
- Reduced Soul Agility dark damage gain to 24%, reduced its cooldown to 60 seconds. = BOOST
4 patches without any changes, after:
- Reduced Soul Agility dark damage gain to 21% from 24%. = SMALL NERF
- Reduced Dark Soul Assail dark damage gain to 68% from 75%. = NERF
- Increased Soul Extractor dark damage gain to 15% from 10%. = SMALL BOOST
8 patches without any changes

To sum up, at this point r / wrl is average dps, it is neither very weak not very strong, it just is and is able to do some result on the instance. However, if you compare it to the r / wrl at the beginning of the balance, when it was totally OP, it is a lot stronger in this moment. Really much stronger. Since then he was nerfed because he was too powerful, then he got boosts, which made him much stronger than he was at the beginning, and yet the current balance is just average, I'll risk a statement that something went wrong.

Zyrex · 21 Apr 2021

Quote from Merkur

(...) sometimes you fall into such a trap that you do not see (...)

I feel that everytime I run rofl without a scout in party

That's a very objective statement and so true on so many ways. I agree on most points (can't speak about rogue for example) and one of the best choices would be a split into multiple class specific sections / sub-forums, as I already suggested multiple times in the past. The major problem in the balancing thread is, that - as you also mentioned at the beginning - most very important posts getting lost so fast and spammed away. So you need to activate your entire guild/friends to like the posts to make sure, ppl see it... which is just unfortunate.

Just some quick notes from myself on that topic... breifly... at least I try to keep it short

Balancing of magical classes

The season thing is a good comparison, I also see something like that happening with the mages. I stopped playing primary mage, because I wanted to get rid of changing my subclass any 2 weeks to deal the most damage with it. But however, I still find myself changing my class any 2 weeks, because another OP class is popping up. Nowadays it's the druid/rogue and warlock/scout which are most overpovered (imo), maybe also warlock/warden can be included since that class is too easy for that huge amount of dmg it deals, which is far away from any other magical classes, even if it's not the strongest one.

Balancing of Tanks

Another big problem is that there is literally no balancing of tanks. I appreciate the change of Warrior/Knight some weeks ago, but that was a single adaption, which didn't really make the class viable, just a bit less worse than any other tanking class. At the moment I'm seriously asking myself to sell my entire plate gear and buy a chain one, because I coult tank equal as a champ and additionally deal damage with one single buff change. Also I would finally be able to play event at b1 in rofl as a tank, since my plate has not enough patt on it... a chain dps gear would have and is equal if it comes to tanking! I mean, maybe boost the champ's damage in general, nerf the op champ/mage and cut away that shield form, which is just broken overpowered imbalanced by far. Maybe let the champ/knight as it is, but also require plate armor to be a viable tank.

Atm you have much better defensive values as a champ/xxx in a dps chain gear than any warden/warrior, warden/knight or warrior/knight tank in plate armor out there. Even some knight-classes are having worse values than dps champs! I'm glad, my guild still accepts me as a useless plate armor-guy, because I use to play utility classes with a lot of crowd control, but having a knight/rogue or knight/priest in a raid would be a waste of a slot these days, which is a shame! Let a tank require plate armor or at least adapted gear for being viable as a tank.

In terms of aggro per second, we better don't talk about, that's another issue, but not relevant at the current (still beginning) state of balancing.

The current state of balancing...

...is literally at the very beginning. Just a few months ago we got the new warlock combinations, that rerolled the entire meta for magical classes and literally busted it. Additionally we got so many rebuilt classes in the meantime, that are partially op (r/s) or totally useless (s/wl) compared to the most others. Can't speak about chain and lether classes, cuz I don't play them. But guild mates told me it's not different at all.

I agree on the schema Merkur suggested...

Quote from Merkur

...Balance idea...:

...and think, this entire thing - as it is atm - needs a huge rethinking in terms of an order of the entire process.

I think, the current way with only 1 balancing thread is the best wrong decision that was ever made for that process. It's hilarious how some ppl try to make their very own favorite class the very best, since all of us are pokemon trainers who want to finally beat the champ. In my eyes there are 2 options: Either close the thread and don't care about community feedback or separate the classes just like Merkur suggested above. Only problem I see there are those special classes like warden/druid, scout/warlock or warrior/mage, because those are magical classes with originally physical main classes. Same relates to a lot of others, but that shall be just an example.

BUT I don't wanna make the entire process a bad thing, because there was so much time invested and I appreciate many of the past/latest changes. So it's not everything lost already. We still have many viable new classes, even most supporter classes are very interesting and make the current meta different to any server I ever played on. I see a huge potential there, if you do the stuff right. I still have hopes that this comes to an end some day, but I think, it's still somewhere at the beginning. I think, someone needs to find a clear path and some sort of structure in that chaos and you will do fine then, I'm sure.

MDNCITAJ · 21 Apr 2021

I appreciate this thread very much.

10 Months are a really long time, this balancing progess is lasting since.

Tbh I am more satisfied with what the dev's are doing than unsatisfied, but I like the idea of Zyrex.

When I was playing the game on you know what server, the forum had class-related subthreads like Mage, Scout,etc...

In this subthreads, people were talking to each other, with alot of knowledge of these classes, nobody else had!

And since we are the only beta-testers this server has, we should discuss the balancing progess not patch-wise but in a class-related subthread. Were you do not loose the overall view on the impact of the balance patches on every combination.

I think it is about time, that the balancing progress come to an end - which means no strong changes anymore, only small ones. So maybe it is necessary to get more class-related feedback

Palpien · 22 Apr 2021

Quote from Zyrex

Nowadays it's the druid/rogue and warlock/scout which are most overpovered (imo), maybe also warlock/warden can be included since that class is too easy for that huge amount of dmg it deals

Agree 100% on that Zyrex. Those 3 combos are way too much overpowered.. They need to be nerfed and not for 4 or 5% but for at least 10-12%

espar91 · 22 Apr 2021

i don't like how you manipulate the rogue/warlock changes by not listing everything.

Reduced Rogue/Warlock Soul Stab, Ghostly Strike and Dark Soul Smelt damage values to 50%.
Reduced Rogue/Warlock Soul Stab maximum and Ghostly Strike base damage to 543% and Soul Stab base damage to 470.6% at level 104 and reduced their cost to 15 focus.
Changed Rogue/Warlock skill Energy Conservation Eye of the Darkness into a passive; Modifies Shadowstab, Low Blow and Wound Attack to inflict Dark Damage, but lowers their damage.

you are just listing buffs and trying to say "they are buffing classes that is already strong" as i understand, but you aren't showing this big nerf to main hits of the class.

Quote from Merkur

To sum up, at this point r / wrl is average dps, it is neither very weak not very strong, it just is and is able to do some result on the instance. However, if you compare it to the r / wrl at the beginning of the balance, when it was totally OP, it is a lot stronger in this moment. Really much stronger. Since then he was nerfed because he was too powerful, then he got boosts, which made him much stronger than he was at the beginning, and yet the current balance is just average, I'll risk a statement that something went wrong.

except against some classes like; r/s ( i didn't play it after last nerf, but it was quite op before that ), wl/s, wl/wd, s/ch, i disagree with this. r/wl is very strong class in regular raids without many supports, eventhough it has no aoes, being on top of scrut even when it get beaten on aoe parts of instance

Quote from Merkur

...Balance idea...:

1) Find the strongest combination of the class and give him nerf
2) Find the weakest / weak combination and give him a big boost
3) Leave the already weakened and often unplayable combination from the first point
4) Give two medium nerfs for a reinforced combination even though it requires two very large nerfs
5) Repeat steps 2-4 for each class: mage, rogue, warrior etc, and set a new power threshold for the party.
6) Go to the second point

Display More

if they start to nerf each combination one by one like you proposed, it will destroy entire process of class balance done up to now. every class combo should be in same line first, then nerf/buff general skills of the class, more likely passive damage skills, to get general class be in same line as other classes.

Quote from Zyrex

Nowadays it's the druid/rogue and warlock/scout which are most overpovered (imo)

i believe druid/rogue looks op because it is very easy class to play and there is lesser diversity among the players unlike many other dps classes that 80% of community cries that they are too weak and 20% which knows how to play it thinks they are fine compared to other classes

for example; if anyone can't deal more damage in overall as m/ch than d/r, that means d/r is created for that player, keep playing it

cheers

xLutinex · 22 Apr 2021

Quote from espar91

...

Quote from Zyrex

Nowadays it's the druid/rogue and warlock/scout which are most overpovered (imo)

i believe druid/rogue looks op because it is very easy class to play and there is lesser diversity among the players unlike many other dps classes that 80% of community cries that they are too weak and 20% which knows how to play it thinks they are fine compared to other classes
...
cheers

I believe, that druid/rogue IS op in some way. this class has full burst (except siege war title) every 90 seconds and I do nearly same damage with my mage gear which is far behind my leather gear, like my scout or rogue classes. The main reason of this class is the CD of selfbuffs for maximum damage. You don't need any other cast speed buffs. Classes like Scouts have Arrow of Essence, which has 5 minutes CD and increase the damage really really strong (strongest buff in game?). So you are doing every 5 minutes your maximum damage, which is really extremly higher than the damage you can do every 90 seconds with a scout.

For me: This is nothing with "fine class for some players".

Kind regards

Merkur · 22 Apr 2021

Quote

i don't like how you manipulate the rogue/warlock changes by not listing everything.

Reduced Rogue/Warlock Soul Stab, Ghostly Strike and Dark Soul Smelt damage values to 50%.

Reduced Rogue/Warlock Soul Stab maximum and Ghostly Strike base damage to 543% and Soul Stab base damage to 470.6% at level 104 and reduced their cost to 15 focus.

Changed Rogue/Warlock skill Energy Conservation Eye of the Darkness into a passive; Modifies Shadowstab, Low Blow and Wound Attack to inflict Dark Damage, but lowers their damage.

you are just listing buffs and trying to say "they are buffing classes that is already strong" as i understand, but you aren't showing this big nerf to main hits of the class.

That is not manipulate from me, only oversight, i dont remember all changes and i used patchnotes and that:

Reduced Rogue/Warlock Soul Stab, Ghostly Strike and Dark Soul Smelt damage values to 50%.

Reduced Rogue/Warlock Soul Stab maximum and Ghostly Strike base damage to 543% and Soul Stab base damage to 470.6% at level 104 and reduced their cost to 15 focus.

Changed Rogue/Warlock skill Energy Conservation Eye of the Darkness into a passive; Modifies Shadowstab, Low Blow and Wound Attack to inflict Dark Damage, but lowers their damage.

is patchnotes from patch 10.2.1.1252 and I didn't notice it because i looked on post-patchnotes 10.2.1.1252.

Sorry for that, that was my mistake, but i remember beginning r/wrl, that was my favorite combination and i played on r/wrl really much time and my opinion is: he was still OP after this patch too.

Quote

except against some classes like; r/s ( i didn't play it after last nerf, but it was quite op before that ), wl/s, wl/wd, s/ch, i disagree with this. r/wl is very strong class in regular raids without many supports, eventhough it has no aoes, being on top of scrut even when it get beaten on aoe parts of instance

I don't know what you want say with that. R/s in this moment still is the strongest rogue. In my raids i dont have many supports and r/wrl is totally medium, r/ch r/w r/m eat him and r/s eat all rogues. Additionally in my mind in this moment rofl is full aoe.

Quote

if they start to nerf each combination one by one like you proposed, it will destroy entire process of class balance done up to now. every class combo should be in same line first, then nerf/buff general skills of the class, more likely passive damage skills, to get general class be in same line as other classes.

In this moment balance is weak and we dont have big hope to repair that without methods changes. Maybe we will temporarily disrupt balance temporairty but sometimes we must do one step back to can do two steps forward.

Quote

i believe druid/rogue looks op because it is very easy class to play and there is lesser diversity among the players unlike many other dps classes that 80% of community cries that they are too weak and 20% which knows how to play it thinks they are fine compared to other classes

Druid/rogue is op because is OP, if we have good player on d/r and we have bad player on d/r and they both do too big damage this gives me two conclusions:

1) class is easy about gameplay

2) class is too strong

Kind regards and thanks for discussion

Madox · 22 Apr 2021

Quote from xLutinex

Quote from espar91

...
i believe druid/rogue looks op because it is very easy class to play and there is lesser diversity among the players unlike many other dps classes that 80% of community cries that they are too weak and 20% which knows how to play it thinks they are fine compared to other classes
...
cheers

I believe, that druid/rogue IS op in some way. this class has full burst (except siege war title) every 90 seconds

Like every warlock has? The difference is, warlocks can do aoe dmg at the same time so in overall, new warlocks are way ahead than d/r. Same with mages, their op constant aoe make them higher in scrut at the end than d/r, (lets not talk about what most mages play, m/wd who can be an aoe burst beast with proper tank and with bad gear).

Put d/r on same list than new warlocks, is twisted, they have even higher burst. Btw im only comparing between mdps, not pdps.

Doing a balance isn't as easy as many say in this post. There are millions of different variables we need to consider which make almost impossible to reach any "balance" and ofc, balance can't never finish. All the changes we see are based ONLY in Rofl data, with next ini, new balance will be needed, that is the reality. Next ini? All classes with higher sustain will be the king until everyone is geared again and people will cry (hey they are op) when they weren't so impressive in Rofl cose we are literally bursting everything down.

All groups play differently, pull more or less mobs, play more or less instruments, have more or less supports, each class have a % of success in each one of those conditions so we can't pretend that all classes will be on the same lvl in a party because is impossible. Example:

-Mage/Scout. This class is insane as duo dps, pet can do high dmg (finally) cose it actually has time to hit. In a party with many sups and dps? well, is just another not so good dps, everyone will destroy all before u can properly do a plasma arrow and pet decide she needs to hit a mob.

All classes are like this, some are slower, some are faster and that doesn't mean they are weaker or stronger. As I said, not all work on the same conditions.

Merkur · 22 Apr 2021

Madox here is a lot of truth in what you say, but I am not saying that the balance is easy, if I remember correctly I even emphasized that it is not. However, I believe that balance has its weaknesses and if you took the steps I suggested, it would simply be easier.

Madox · 22 Apr 2021

Quote from Merkur

Druid/rogue is op because is OP, if we have good player on d/r and we have bad player on d/r and they both do too big damage this gives me two conclusions:

1) class is easy about gameplay

2) class is too strong

Kind regards and thanks for discussion

I agree on first, class is easy as hell. I would like to add 2 more conclusions:

3) class belongs to fast classes list: It can do dmg without cast speed instruments (cose they are mostly useless to it, same as new warlocks) and have no buffs/debuffs to use on mobs (like plasma arrow or many other skills other classes have) so it can do dmg so quickly, without any preparation and under any circumstance.

4) high mattack. One of the reasons why ur bad geared d/r do good with this class can be the mattack this class can reach. Same as d/wl, they can easily reach +400k matt than other mdps so that difference probably matters, specially in mobs.

espar91 · 22 Apr 2021

Quote from xLutinex

I believe, that druid/rogue IS op in some way. this class has full burst (except siege war title) every 90 seconds

this is almost same for rogue/warlock and literally any warlock though, anyway;

Quote from xLutinex

So you are doing every 5 minutes your maximum damage, which is really extremly higher than the damage you can do every 90 seconds with a scout.

i don't think d/r has aoes the scout has

Quote from Merkur

That is not manipulate from me, only oversight

that is more than oversight, this change is more effective than all of your list combined together.

rogue/warlock was favorite of slow runs because it was a good option if other players can't destroy crowds in seconds, but it was never best rogue except for a few days/weeks in certain patches, like its initial rework

rogue/warden was best rogue class for a very long time, until r/m rework appeared, but not many player was able to play r/wd properly back in time which i believe was the reason why it didn't get any change/nerf for that long time. even myself noticed its existence after few months of initial change of the class, because i never saw anyone playing it around my runs and never wanted to try it because it kinda felt boring just by reading skills, but in fact it was better than any other rogue, not slightly, but far better.

Quote from Merkur

I don't know what you want say with that. R/s in this moment still is the strongest rogue. In my raids i dont have many supports and r/wrl is totally medium, r/ch r/w r/m eat him and r/s eat all rogues.

r/w r/ch r/m are best rogues as i remember from a few months ago (idk about current state of r/s) but im comparing r/wl with other classes, not with strongest rogues. if you still think its weak against other classes such as mages, wardens or champs, maybe you need to change your rotation, the class don't need aoe to be good, single hit dtpeals around 20-40kk depending on party which is more than enough to handle narrow places even without aoe, this is same for some wardens (wd/s iirc) for example in some situations, single target > aoe for some classes in certain situations

but class has very little physical attack, which makes it unusable for low tiered/statted equipments or parties with bad warlock/mage supports, - i think i had lowest patk among other rogues as this class.

Quote from Merkur

Druid/rogue is op because is OP

druid/rogue is op because it is playable even by a potato and it has no chance to do mistakes with that unless you are a literal potato

bad side of the class is, even if you play perfect, there won't be much difference between you and those little potatoes due to being easy to play + higher than usual magical attack, this reminds me old w/m.

also i believe only difference between strong warlocks and d/r is, warlock is harder to play and has aoe power as result of this difficulty. i also think d/r is like somehow r/wl either since both has very high sustain, high single target burst but no/low aoe.

xLutinex · 22 Apr 2021

Quote from espar91

i don't think d/r has aoes the scout has

uhhmmm.... Scout and AOE? You mean Piercing Arrow and Reflected Shot? Because Hurricane Downpour has 1 min cd. D/R has an AOE which can be used permanently and can hit all targets (no limit). Scouts Reflected Shot is strongly limited to few mobs and Piercing Arrow.... pls don't call this as an AOE if you did. Piercing Arrow cannot really hit many targets because of the crap area/stone/flower in the way. I guess the most amount of mobs I had hit with Piercing Arrow was 9 or 10 at B2 after all mobs were pulled to the tank on the same place. In trash it often hits only 1 target, even if 20 mobs there (mantis after b2 for example).

Now im out. I said my opinion

Edit: Scout have more full buffed AOE damage yes, but D/R has higher permanent AOE damage (if mobs living longer than 2 seconds)

espar91 · 22 Apr 2021

Quote from xLutinex

Quote from espar91

i don't think d/r has aoes the scout has

uhhmmm.... Scout and AOE? You mean Piercing Arrow and Reflected Shot? Because Hurricane Downpour has 1 min cd. D/R has an AOE which can be used permanently and can hit all targets (no limit). Scouts Reflected Shot is strongly limited to few mobs and Piercing Arrow.... pls don't call this as an AOE if you did. Piercing Arrow cannot really hit many targets because of the crap area/stone/flower in the way. I guess the most amount of mobs I had hit with Piercing Arrow was 9 or 10 at B2 after all mobs were pulled to the tank on the same place. In trash it often hits only 1 target, even if 20 mobs there (mantis after b2 for example).

Now im out. I said my opinion

im talking about s/ch, s/r, s/m, s/wd, i didn't play other scouts frequently, and yes, i still believe these classes have somewhat aoe sustain and burst.

aoe damage of d/r was really low compared to other skills of the class in overall in my runs, i don't know how it makes it "good" just by being able to spam it, idk, people often do such mistakes, i mean using aoe skill when there are 3-4 mobs by thinking it would be better because its a "crowd", but in reality single target skill is dealing more damage for certain classes as i mentioned on previous message, yet im not sure about d/r.

but to be honest its been a few weeks since i didn't run, maybe things changed

xLutinex · 22 Apr 2021

Quote from espar91

Quote from xLutinex

uhhmmm.... Scout and AOE? You mean Piercing Arrow and Reflected Shot? Because Hurricane Downpour has 1 min cd. D/R has an AOE which can be used permanently and can hit all targets (no limit). Scouts Reflected Shot is strongly limited to few mobs and Piercing Arrow.... pls don't call this as an AOE if you did. Piercing Arrow cannot really hit many targets because of the crap area/stone/flower in the way. I guess the most amount of mobs I had hit with Piercing Arrow was 9 or 10 at B2 after all mobs were pulled to the tank on the same place. In trash it often hits only 1 target, even if 20 mobs there (mantis after b2 for example).

Now im out. I said my opinion

im talking about s/ch, s/r, s/m, s/wd, i didn't play other scouts frequently, and yes, i still believe these classes have somewhat aoe sustain and burst.

aoe damage of d/r was really low compared to other skills of the class in overall in my runs, i don't know how it makes it "good" just by being able to spam it, idk, people often do such mistakes, i mean using aoe skill when there are 3-4 mobs by thinking it would be better because its a "crowd", but in reality single target skill is dealing more damage for certain classes as i mentioned on previous message, yet im not sure about d/r.

but to be honest its been a few weeks since i didn't run, maybe things changed

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Yes, I didnt said I use the aoe on small amount of mobs, but on 8 or more

Anyway, more main mdps player can give maybe better feedback, because I don't play mdps so often. Wrong thread for it btw too.

Sorry for offtopic

MidanLauert · 23 Apr 2021

Outrageous and disgraceful post. It is alarmist and disrespectful.

You are highlighting symptoms, not the problems behind that; the goal of balancing is, to put it bluntly, to even out the cost of achieving a certain goal (defense, heal, damge) between combinations in the same field. This way the general playerbase will not feel cheated or limited by viability. This gets complicated when you take into account that DPS, as the only field of classes, are in a competetive setting as the top end is infinite. This is unique in the way that and other class is able to customize much more in terms of build (though most follow trends) as they do not neccessarily need to compete. WL/M doesn't need to compete because they're always in a run; just like heals and tanks. Not sure about your D/W DPS though.

This simply means that a weaker class will never be played as their viability is limited by a comparison between the players and not the content itself. The very peak will be sparcly populated and small changes can topple the entire metagame, something that caused dissatisfaction among endgame players for a while now. The way you propose to fix this though would only worsen the problem.

This is why your methodology for achieving balance as proposed would be fundamentally wrong: It falls apart at the base definitions of the general discourse and will lead into even further discord simply by trying get rid of the steep curve.

1) Find the strongest combination of the class and give him nerf

Define Strongest. It may be easy in some situations, like the rouge, where the strongest is definitely the /s. But let's go to the warlocks. Is the WL/Scout or the WL/Wd the best? Warriors? Wardens? Champions? Arguably the strongest champion is the Champ/Druid, that literally can tank ROFL while supporting and healing.

2) Find the weakest / weak combination and give him a big boost

Define weakest. Arguably the Champ/Druid is the weakest champion, as it literally has no damage potential, like, at all. It has some good buffs but no matter what you do, you kind of suck in comparison to other damage dealers. You are also not really all that versatile, unlike the /Priest or /Warlock - both are much more suited to a quickly adapting playstyle that can catch a lack in damage or tankiness much more easily.

Those two points alone cause the entire basis for your argument to be shaky. You are dissatisfied with balancing not being a one-patch-fix-all (i.e. a process) while at the same time asking for many small patches (i.e. a process).

This is just what so many people get wrong about balancing. They don't realize that DPS classes are more or less the same unless they bring something else to the table; which in turn makes them unattractive as pure DPS because they can never be as strong as those without the "extra". If they were, they'd be OP. This is why you never see any wd/p or wl/d as a heal. Someone would need to sacrifice DPS for support and play a priest or druid as damage dealer so that the neccessary buffs are still around. There are very many cases of classes like that around:

Take the Rouge/Champ for example. It deals quite nice damage but will never reach levels of the Rouge/Scout, simply because the classes utility is high enough to deny equal DPS. I bet that, unless you solodamage, you finish the instance in similar speed though.

But hey, what about non-competetive groups of classes like the tank or support or heal?
They're f****** great. Play what you want as long as you can do your job. K/D, /Ch, /R and M are viable. Champ-Tanks are very viable (but sometimes really, really annoying) in almost every combination. The only notable outlier is the Ch/M that's a bit too strong.

Wd is the weakest of the three "main tanks" but does a pretty decent job when paired with a /K or a /W. Hell, even a WL/K can paritally tank rofl... somehow. W/K is a pretty decent tank, too. Supports are always a pleasure to have in runs and heal is 'just' gated by "can you provide buff xyz and keep us alive?".

The balancing could be better, I agree, but don't go around calling so many hours of work, sweat, consideration and discussion "stupidity" or "madness". Balancing is a process. You don't tell a baker their cake sucks just because you tried the dough either; why do it here?

It is near impossible to grasp every single class combination and how changes to one affect the game in the long run.

You twist one screw and you need to readjust the entire ship - until you find a point of equilibrium; only to have it all become obsolete towards the next instance and let the game of cat and mouse begin again.

Have a blessed day,
Midan.

Zyrex · 24 Apr 2021

Just one correction MidanLauert UwU

Quote from MidanLauert

They're f****** great. Play what you want as long as you can do your job. K/D, /Ch, /R and M are viable. Champ-Tanks are very viable (but sometimes really, really annoying) in almost every combination. The only notable outlier is the Ch/M that's a bit too strong.

Wd is the weakest of the three "main tanks" but does a pretty decent job when paired with a /K or a /W. Hell, even a WL/K can paritally tank rofl... somehow. W/K is a pretty decent tank, too.

Tanks are great as long as you don't play knight yourself and compare your value of viability as a tank to champ dps classes. You will realize that those strength based chain dps builds have better values plus can play tactics that require a minimum of patt (e.g. rofl b1). So basically - if you don't support the raid as a knight - you are currently less useful than a champ dps.

Balancing tanks should either make "real" stamina oriented tanks better than chain strength dps or nerf the viability of chain classes as tanks in strength oriented gear. (if you ask me, I would entirely remove shield form from game and make it only available for champ/knight, but fortunately I don't do balancing here :D)

The fact that you reach better values as a chain dps champ in shield form than a full stamina-statted plate knight or warden or warrior, is just ridiculous. The only fact why warden tanks are actually viable in the current tank meta is their 100% parry rate. Without they have some defensive cooldowns which unfortunately have a decently higher downtime than uptime, which makes them useless in long lasting fights through immune phases / boss tactics stages.

I mean, yes, rofl isn't that hard that you actually "need" good defensive values, but a dps class shouldn't be able to replace a fulltank with just 1 click.

xLutinex · 24 Apr 2021

Quote from Zyrex

(if you ask me, I would entirely remove shield form from game and make it only available for champ/knight, but fortunately I don't do balancing here :D)

I thought this would never happen, but I agree more than 100% with you. But even for champ/knight it needs to be kinda nerfed, because I have in leather gear 4kk p-def as champ/knight... without any short time buffs....

Serenadae · 24 Apr 2021

Quote from Zyrex

Just one correction MidanLauert UwU

Quote from MidanLauert

They're f****** great. Play what you want as long as you can do your job. K/D, /Ch, /R and M are viable. Champ-Tanks are very viable (but sometimes really, really annoying) in almost every combination. The only notable outlier is the Ch/M that's a bit too strong.

Wd is the weakest of the three "main tanks" but does a pretty decent job when paired with a /K or a /W. Hell, even a WL/K can paritally tank rofl... somehow. W/K is a pretty decent tank, too.

Tanks are great as long as you don't play knight yourself and compare your value of viability as a tank to champ dps classes. You will realize that those strength based chain dps builds have better values plus can play tactics that require a minimum of patt (e.g. rofl b1). So basically - if you don't support the raid as a knight - you are currently less useful than a champ dps.

Balancing tanks should either make "real" stamina oriented tanks better than chain strength dps or nerf the viability of chain classes as tanks in strength oriented gear. (if you ask me, I would entirely remove shield form from game and make it only available for champ/knight, but fortunately I don't do balancing here :D)

The fact that you reach better values as a chain dps champ in shield form than a full stamina-statted plate knight or warden or warrior, is just ridiculous. The only fact why warden tanks are actually viable in the current tank meta is their 100% parry rate. Without they have some defensive cooldowns which unfortunately have a decently higher downtime than uptime, which makes them useless in long lasting fights through immune phases / boss tactics stages.

I mean, yes, rofl isn't that hard that you actually "need" good defensive values, but a dps class shouldn't be able to replace a fulltank with just 1 click.

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So you want to take away the ability to tank from all Champions except /Knight ? You realize that /Warrior and /Priest are tanking-oriented combinations as well ?

Moreover, I don't get why Champions should have the same pdef like Knights, they lack parry (with the exception of /Knight). Parry offers much more damage mitigation than excessive pdef values, as can be observed at rofl last boss when he gathers many stacks. Moreover, another prime defensive mechanism of Knights is Threaten, a skill that shifts the adf tremendously in favor of the user. Sure, it cannot be used on a immune target, but in this situation Champions loose their iss stacks as well. And don't even get me started on Shield of Discipline, a skill that never should have been implemented in the first way, because it offers way too much mitigation with 50% uptime.

Lastly, although I agree that Ch/K gets too much pdef and should be adjusted, it amuses me greatly how the way too strong Knight combination is never mentioned: Knight/Mage.

A 21,8 % permanently maintainable damage reduction debuff is more than insane. It's even stronger than P/W's similar debuff and this class is solely dedicated to supporting. Imho the additional survivability for the whole group outweights any superior stats greatly. After all, your job as a tank goes beyond just surving, you have to make sure your group survives as well. Hence I don't get why some people claim Champion is vastly superior in terms of tanking and Knight far worse (even read useless once or twice)...

@ mods: If this is the wrong thread for this, please relocate it to the feedback one. I could not leave this unanswered.

xLutinex · 24 Apr 2021

Quote from Serenadae

... And don't even get me started on Shield of Discipline, a skill that never should have been implemented in the first way, because it offers way too much mitigation with 50% uptime. ....

... Hence I don't get why some people claim Champion is vastly superior in terms of tanking and Knight far worse (even read useless once or twice)...

shield of discipline was hardly nerfed some patches ago, where the damage migitation calculation was changed.

Secondly why ppl maybe claim so much about Champions is: you can effectively tank, do dps and heal as a champ in chain dps gear. Something that no other classes can. A raid of 12 champions is same effective running an instance like any other group. For fairness every class should get a skill like shield form and reaching full tank values in their dps gear or none class should have it. Actually there is no need atm doing other gear than chain. The joke was the healing ability of Champ/druid. Just saying but a leather gear rogue/priest or rogue/druid heals nothing while champ/druid is a good healer in dps gear.

It's all about fairness, balancing and class roles. Nobody can deny, that champions can do all jobs in a group effectively with 1 gear

Kind regards

Edit: I don't get the problem, why it would be a problem, if shield form can only be used with plate gear and disables ability to wear chain while active

Serenadae · 24 Apr 2021

Quote from xLutinex

Quote from Serenadae

... And don't even get me started on Shield of Discipline, a skill that never should have been implemented in the first way, because it offers way too much mitigation with 50% uptime. ....

... Hence I don't get why some people claim Champion is vastly superior in terms of tanking and Knight far worse (even read useless once or twice)...

shield of discipline was hardly nerfed some patches ago, where the damage migitation calculation was changed.

Secondly why ppl maybe claim so much about Champions is: you can effectively tank, do dps and heal as a champ in chain dps gear. Something that no other classes can. A raid of 12 champions is same effective running an instance like any other group. For fairness every class should get a skill like shield form and reaching full tank values in their dps gear or none class should have it. Actually there is no need atm doing other gear than chain. The joke was the healing ability of Champ/druid. Just saying but a leather gear rogue/priest or rogue/druid heals nothing while champ/druid is a good healer in dps gear.

It's all about fairness, balancing and class roles. Nobody can deny, that champions can do all jobs in a group effectively with 1 gear

Kind regards

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If SoD was only hardly nerfed, doesn't that mean it's still too strong ?

Regarding the rest of your post, agreed, Champion can tank effectively with dps gear, which should be adressed. Ch/D however is not on par with a real healer, so I have to disagree on that point.

I suggest reducing the conversion rate of Shield Form to 20%, just like Disassembly Mode. This way Ch-tanks would have to build into their role and not just use dps gear. However, Rune Growth and Rune Craft - Fortify should be reverted to their former state.

This doesn't justify claiming that Knight is a worse tank than Champ though, which both you and Zyrex did repeatedly. There is a reason why the majority of tanks play Knight.

Lastly, in the context of fairness, how is it fair that a fully-fledged tank (k/m) has access to a stronger damage reduction debuff than a class whose sole purpose is supporting (w/p) ?

xLutinex · 24 Apr 2021

Quote from Serenadae

Quote from xLutinex

shield of discipline was hardly nerfed some patches ago, where the damage migitation calculation was changed.

Secondly why ppl maybe claim so much about Champions is: you can effectively tank, do dps and heal as a champ in chain dps gear. Something that no other classes can. A raid of 12 champions is same effective running an instance like any other group. For fairness every class should get a skill like shield form and reaching full tank values in their dps gear or none class should have it. Actually there is no need atm doing other gear than chain. The joke was the healing ability of Champ/druid. Just saying but a leather gear rogue/priest or rogue/druid heals nothing while champ/druid is a good healer in dps gear.

It's all about fairness, balancing and class roles. Nobody can deny, that champions can do all jobs in a group effectively with 1 gear

Kind regards

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If SoD was only hardly nerfed, doesn't that mean it's still too strong ?

Regarding the rest of your post, agreed, Champion can tank effectively with dps gear, which should be adressed. Ch/D however is not on par with a real healer, so I have to disagree on that point.

I suggest reducing the conversion rate of Shield Form to 20%, just like Disassembly Mode. This way Ch-tanks would have to build into their role and not just use dps gear. However, Rune Growth and Rune Craft - Fortify should be reverted to their former state.

This doesn't justify claiming that Knight is a worse tank than Champ though, which both you and Zyrex did repeatedly. There is a reason why the majority of tanks play Knight.

Lastly, in the context of fairness, how is it fair that a fully-fledged tank (k/m) has access to a stronger damage reduction debuff than a class whose sole purpose is supporting (w/p) ?

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because the w/p has more supp than only damage migitation. And the damage migitation overrides the k/m debuff. Furthermore the debuff of w/p applies on immune mobs. All in all stronger.

Healing the whole raid with more than 200k in a dps gear is kinda too strong. I don't Know how much it is, but I guess on an endgame CH/d it heals more than 500k

In my opinion delete Knight/m damage migitation debuff. But delete shield form too. It is OK for me.

Classes should have their role. And If they can fit more than 1 role, they should need more than 1 gear. All other is just game destroying and ridiculous

As I said in previous. Add plate gear to shield form and disable ability wearing chain while active. Best solution. After it, some shield form values can be adjusted, if needed

Madox · 24 Apr 2021

In my opinion, every tank should have a tank gear. Wl/k is a magical tank, for example, but you still need a proper gear for that, not just a button. Champions shield form was never ever fair to me. Regards.

Serenadae · 24 Apr 2021

Quote from xLutinex

Quote from Serenadae

If SoD was only hardly nerfed, doesn't that mean it's still too strong ?

Regarding the rest of your post, agreed, Champion can tank effectively with dps gear, which should be adressed. Ch/D however is not on par with a real healer, so I have to disagree on that point.

I suggest reducing the conversion rate of Shield Form to 20%, just like Disassembly Mode. This way Ch-tanks would have to build into their role and not just use dps gear. However, Rune Growth and Rune Craft - Fortify should be reverted to their former state.

This doesn't justify claiming that Knight is a worse tank than Champ though, which both you and Zyrex did repeatedly. There is a reason why the majority of tanks play Knight.

Lastly, in the context of fairness, how is it fair that a fully-fledged tank (k/m) has access to a stronger damage reduction debuff than a class whose sole purpose is supporting (w/p) ?

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because the w/p has more supp than only damage migitation. And the damage migitation overrides the k/m debuff. Furthermore the debuff of w/p applies on immune mobs. All in all stronger.

Healing the whole raid with more than 200k in a dps gear is kinda too strong. I don't Know how much it is, but I guess on an endgame CH/d it heals more than 500k

In my opinion delete Knight/m damage migitation debuff. But delete shield form too. It is OK for me.

Classes should have their role. And If they can fit more than 1 role, they should need more than 1 gear. All other is just game destroying and ridiculous

As I said in previous. Add plate gear to shield form and disable ability wearing chain while active. Best solution. After it, some shield form values can be adjusted, if needed

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Yes, W/P has support, but K/M is a tank, as I said. I fail to see your point here.

Sure classes should have their role, hence my suggestion with changing Shield Form. I heavily disagree on making Champion tanks plate wearers though. There are already enough classes that can/should wear plate. I can't play general Rogue or Scout with my chain gear, althought they fill the same role (dps).

Since you seem to have some problem with Champion in general this will be my last post. All the arguments have been presented and it is now up to the devs to decide.

xLutinex · 24 Apr 2021

Quote from Serenadae

Quote from xLutinex

because the w/p has more supp than only damage migitation. And the damage migitation overrides the k/m debuff. Furthermore the debuff of w/p applies on immune mobs. All in all stronger.

Healing the whole raid with more than 200k in a dps gear is kinda too strong. I don't Know how much it is, but I guess on an endgame CH/d it heals more than 500k

In my opinion delete Knight/m damage migitation debuff. But delete shield form too. It is OK for me.

Classes should have their role. And If they can fit more than 1 role, they should need more than 1 gear. All other is just game destroying and ridiculous

As I said in previous. Add plate gear to shield form and disable ability wearing chain while active. Best solution. After it, some shield form values can be adjusted, if needed

Display More
Yes, W/P has support, but K/M is a tank, as I said. I fail to see your point here.

Sure classes should have their role, hence my suggestion with changing Shield Form. I heavily disagree on making Champion tanks plate wearers though. There are already enough classes that can/should wear plate. I can't play general Rogue or Scout with my chain gear, althought they fill the same role (dps).

Since you seem to have some problem with Champion in general this will be my last post. All the arguments have been presented and it is now up to the devs to decide.

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You didn't get the point. Like Madox said, Shield Form was never fair.

1 separate gear for 1 role, like all other must do, would be fair. That is, what I said. In which direction a solution WOULD be implemented (plate gear for shield form or any other solution, that you cannot tank anymore in dps gear), we will see. But stop lay words in my mouth, which I never wrote/said. In the whole discussion I was always against the multi role with 1 gear. It has nothing to do with Champ in general. Champ is sadly the one and only class which is able to do this

Kind regards

Zyrex · 24 Apr 2021

Quote from Serenadae

This doesn't justify claiming that Knight is a worse tank than Champ though, which both you and Zyrex did repeatedly. There is a reason why the majority of tanks play Knight.

A knight doesn't reach 100% parry, so there are always situations this class needs to rely to clean def and hp, since you can be hit without parrying. And a champ maybe has lesser parry, but if it comes that hits aren't parried, the champ has better values of def and hp, which matter more.

Quote from Serenadae

Yes, W/P has support, but K/M is a tank, as I said. I fail to see your point here.

Knight tanks have always been more supporters than other tanks. There is only 1 single knight class that has no support/utility at all, that's the knight/rogue - but this one is the most defensive knight, so additional support ability would break its concept.

Quote from Serenadae

I heavily disagree on making Champion tanks plate wearers though.

This is not at all about making champs plate tanks. We just want to make sure that you need an adapted gear (as wl/k or a magical k/m do) to be able to tank. The only thing that is just unfair is that a chain dps strength build can tank equally or even better than other plate stamina builds.

In my eyes the default Shield Form should be changed to only decrease incoming damage by 10% while increasing output dmg by 10%. The champ/knight shield form could stay as is, but the class should be nerfed generally, since you can tank even in lether gear with it.

Our only wish is a real balancing, that you can play any tanking class you want, but need an adapted gear (full stamina) to be viable in your role as a tank.

Let's clarify the problem more: Would you be happy if stamina plate wearing classes (like Knight/Warrior or Knight/Champ) deal more damage than strength chain classes? No, ofc not. But why would strength chain classes tank better than most/any stamina plate classes? 🤯

Class Balance - "Madness and stupidity"

Merkur 19 Apr 2021

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