Heart of the Ocean (Awakened) [Patch 10.4.3.1000]

    Quote from Blaxx

    For me I really like to play like this and don’t Spam just a Macro to do dmg and all die Instant After a few Sec. I hope more new inies like this comes out! But I understand, maybe they bring in.further something who just kill/stun or fear Range dd I would like to see😉 the truth the most melee dps have the problem with those mechanics.

    Personally, I did not make eq to play with a combination that is only supposed to stun mobs and eq is not needed for him. I think it is a harmful idea, the more so that only 6 people are in the team. And if that is the intention, the aoe should be significantly adjusted, as well as the mobs attacks towards the back of the team. There is too much disproportion between the fight from a distance and the fight melee. If the instance is to require skill and organization, let it require everyone.

    What I really like about this ini is that:

    • Finally some content that requires more then: let the tank grab aggro and spank the mobs
    • You get a small adrenaline rush for knowing that if you don't pay attention to what mobs do (and not counter it/walk away) you or some other party member will pay for it &)
    • Even when you play ranged, your not always save ^^


    But hey, everybody (dis)likes content because of different reasons. ;)

    "Even when you play ranged, your not always save ^^"


    Does that say good about the instance?


    For the sake of discussion, let's assume the balance is successful. Since this is the case, under ideal conditions, the damage to melee characters is the same as to range characters. Here the difficulty of melee combat has been raised x10 and requires specific classes, while hitting from a distance you have free choice, is it fair? In my opinion, no, and that should be adjusted.


    Try to go to this instance with a rogue/warden and then a mage/knight, not only that you will do a lot more damage and you will survive more (discipline shield).


    I appeal! Reduce your aoe damage or make it harder to play at a distance so as to level the playing near mobs and not require more from some than from others.

    Quote from Merkur
    Quote from Blaxx

    For me I really like to play like this and don’t Spam just a Macro to do dmg and all die Instant After a few Sec. I hope more new inies like this comes out! But I understand, maybe they bring in.further something who just kill/stun or fear Range dd I would like to see😉 the truth the most melee dps have the problem with those mechanics.

    Personally, I did not make eq to play with a combination that is only supposed to stun mobs and eq is not needed for him. I think it is a harmful idea, the more so that only 6 people are in the team. And if that is the intention, the aoe should be significantly adjusted, as well as the mobs attacks towards the back of the team. There is too much disproportion between the fight from a distance and the fight melee. If the instance is to require skill and organization, let it require everyone.

    Ok but a lot of ppl say some class combination are useless Becaurse they are not meta. Now a lot of those class combinations can be usefull Becaurse they bring a lot of supports with it. Ppl just care about what they can read in the scrutinizer and don’t care about what supports do for example. Yes every want a warlock/mage on his group but there are also other support classes who really usefull. Is there a scrutinizer who would show the supports what ppl do, you never would read a warden or a warrior who just use his skills for doing dmg in that list. There where a lot of other classes meta and not those who do the most dmg. Warden/scout for example brings after that patch who change his elite, nothing for a group play and his sucking pet who do the most of that class is always pulling. Ofc the easiest is to have something with a champ class in that ini. But also scouts have a lot of crowed control or Warrior if you use them right. You ask for balancing, I think this is a good way to balance to make useless classes usefull 😉

    Quote from Blaxx
    Quote from Merkur

    Personally, I did not make eq to play with a combination that is only supposed to stun mobs and eq is not needed for him. I think it is a harmful idea, the more so that only 6 people are in the team. And if that is the intention, the aoe should be significantly adjusted, as well as the mobs attacks towards the back of the team. There is too much disproportion between the fight from a distance and the fight melee. If the instance is to require skill and organization, let it require everyone.

    Ok but a lot of ppl say some class combination are useless Becaurse they are not meta. Now a lot of those class combinations can be usefull Becaurse they bring a lot of supports with it. Ppl just care about what they can read in the scrutinizer and don’t care about what supports do for example. Yes every want a warlock/mage on his group but there are also other support classes who really usefull. Is there a scrutinizer who would show the supports what ppl do, you never would read a warden or a warrior who just use his skills for doing dmg in that list. There where a lot of other classes meta and not those who do the most dmg. Warden/scout for example brings after that patch who change his elite, nothing for a group play and his sucking pet who do the most of that class is always pulling. Ofc the easiest is to have something with a champ class in that ini. But also scouts have a lot of crowed control or Warrior if you use them right. You ask for balancing, I think this is a good way to balance to make useless classes usefull 😉

    It is not useful, hardly anyone wants to play support and I don't like the idea of forcing someone who plays DPS to support.


    I understand your point of view but disagree with it. I prefer classes to be adjusted to inis, not inis to classes.



    EDIT:

    For example, if we have most dps in the guild, I play on rogue myself and I like a rogue/ warden, why am I forced to go to r/ch to survive? Why should I make someone else go something like this? At the same time, in such a situation, you can replace a person hitting from close to a person hitting from a distance. It is not okay.

    Yeah but if you have a good support class, who also can deal a lot of dmg. Ch/wl , r/ch , w/what ever, scout/what ever or wl dps or Mages are awesome they even waste a gcd. Then you have the Jackpot. If not take one who can just focus on that part and those other dps can deal dmg 😉

    Quote from Merkur

    I absolutely oppose the idea of assembling a team from specific and right classes in order to do content, that was not the idea of balance.

    Aoe should be lowered drastically.


    #fake_balance

    so you want a generic, easy, bland instance that can be run by literally any combination of tank, supports and dps?

    cool. balance > fun is not good for the health of the game. hoto is fun as building a good team is part of the experience. There are plenty combinations that are very viable, all you have to do is look for enough stuns and interrupts to survive. If that is enough for you to say #fake_balance then I wonder if you're acting to pursue your own agenda in the veil of balance rather than the health of the game.

    hoto is fine. it's an endgame instance. you're supposed to optimize.

    We have 6 people here, including tank and heal, so 4 dps or 3 dps and wrl/m, anyway there is a 33% chance that I will have to change the class, which I don't want to do. If my distance guildmates do not decide to support me when I am on another class, I will be dead. It is definitely better to make a long range aoe, possibly even uninterruptible, but with lower damage.


    And since you say that there are good support classes that make the same as the full-dps classes, that means either they should do less dmg or the non-support classes should support the party, there is also mistake in the balance here.


    A perfect example is r/ch, which is strong and mega useful, that should also be changed. His usefull stuns should be nerf or his dmg should be nerf.


    #fake_balance

    Quote from MidanLauert
    Quote from Merkur

    I absolutely oppose the idea of assembling a team from specific and right classes in order to do content, that was not the idea of balance.

    Aoe should be lowered drastically.


    #fake_balance

    so you want a generic, easy, bland instance that can be run by literally any combination of tank, supports and dps?

    cool. balance > fun is not good for the health of the game. hoto is fun as building a good team is part of the experience. There are plenty combinations that are very viable, all you have to do is look for enough stuns and interrupts to survive. If that is enough for you to say #fake_balance then I wonder if you're acting to pursue your own agenda in the veil of balance rather than the health of the game.

    hoto is fine. it's an endgame instance. you're supposed to optimize.

    I want an honest instance, lwhich does not require more from some than from the other.


    Besides, I thought that this is what class balance is for, so that everyone can find what they want to play and play. Somehow in WoW you can play whatever you want and the instances are not generic.


    And I totally don't understand the allegation of my business ^^

    I can as well say that it is your best interest to have it because you like such a system, let's not go in this way.


    Hoto is endgame? For me, hoto is an add-on before a new instance. And if the endgame is for 6 people, it's weak to say the least.


    I appeal to increase the range of aoe skills to 300 :)

    Thanks to this, each team will need stuns and it will be healthy and honest :)

    Blaxx  MidanLauert


    Do you want a non-generic instance?


    Maybe instead of making hoto again, it's worth taking a look at the mechanics like on the second boss 95 ini? 1 boss on 98? AC? 1 boss on 92? 67? 70? 65? And the best non-generic ini: Belathis (82)


    These are non-generic instances. These are unusual ideas, not mob's aoe hitting 2kk like on hoto and you need a stunner, wow, what an innovation.

    Please don't pretend we decided the instance. You don't like hoto. You've made your point. Trivializing the instance is not the answer though.

    I'm not saying you have. I'm just trying to show you the difference between a generic instance and a non-generic instance.


    Whether or not I like an instance does not matter. I don't like rofle and gorge ^^


    I just want the classes on this instance to be treated equally and reject your argument that the instance is therefore non-generic.

    By showing you instances that are not really generic.

    The fact that the aoe will be adjusted will not make the instance non-generic any longer, because it is generic, our mage/knight beats everything just like on any other instance, just like our scouts. So I conclude that the instance is generic.


    You say that I trivialize, but it has been said here that you need someone who interrupts castes, that's the whole philosophy.

    You're arguing semantics here. Hoto itself is not the most exciting instance, I am very aware of that and probably everyone else is. Asking for the removal of the last bit of spice in the form of the aoe being reduced is not a viable solution. Neither is increasing the rage to 300 - as the ranged classes lack the defense to actually survive anything. That's their whole thing.

    I'm saying that you need to play with some tactics and not run in blindly. That's literally the entire hoto tactic. If people can't do that - they won't be able to play much more complex events like the instances you've mentioned.

    xD


    So my rogue with 500k deff is strong enough? But m/k with shield of discipline is too weak?

    After all, the aoe of these mobs hit them ^^

    Besides, if you do the instance according to your tactic, i.e. there will be a stuner, ranged people are safe. I see a great lack of logic here.

    Your rouge with your level 99 ISS, Immunity food, interrupts and perhaps a well built team will be safe. This is what we experienced daily in hoto since release. If your groups can't do that then you simply don't know how to play that instance.

    I get that you're pissed that ranged characters have it easier in hoto (and frankly, in general) but your approach is flawed as hell. The problems you're describing are bigger than just hoto, by the way: Rouges have the lowest defenses of all melees - and citing the notable outlier of the m/r as a point for comparison is as dishonest as it is foolish. Rouges in general need a good and worthwile source of damage mitigation added to them that isn't too busted with the added dodge rate.

    The answer isn't in making hoto brainless, the answer is in buffing rouges, namely giving it the defenses it sorely needs.

    Please do not teach me to play and tell me how to do an instance because I can do it.


    The fact that we're experiencing something since its release means it's perfect? Why we started Class Rebalance? Why, for example, a druid/priest got elite skills, even though he did not have them since the premiere of the game? It's a 180-degree change.


    I'm not angry, I'm against unfair treatment. A 40% reduction is not enough to survive Aoe, so I have the same chances as scout, I don't understand why you are so afraid of it. One aoe = kill.


    I don't think it is stupid to quote the mage/knight class, it's one class whose abilities are perfect for this instance, I totally don't understand why you find it stupid. The mage/knight is not fair? You don't mean to say he's too strong? Don't you like magicians?


    Seriously, the mage/knight, despite being too strong, is still a class like any other, and you could say that it's perfect for a hoto, you can't dismiss it and say it's stupid.


    Anyway, I would not like to throw here a topic about the boost of a rogue on defense or life or reduction. No! Absolutely no! I believe it will upset our great balance even more. Let's not adapt the classes to the instance, this is stupid. At the moment, the rogue has the same chances of survival as a scout or a mage, both will die in one hit.


    If you want the tactic to be to keep mobs from using aoe, then let that tactic apply to everyone. Stop confusing my eyes by saying I have to learn to play or get a team. The truth is, this tactic is only for melee, why do you want it not to apply to other classes? What is this dishonesty? If it is to be in such a form that little played classes are to be useful, let's give more of this spice and encourage everyone to play in this way and not turn into a scout or mage.


    And not! The answer is not to boost the rogues, the answer is to adjust the instances, just as the birds on rofl had huge damage aoe in the day, this has been adjusted properly and still needs to be careful about that. I understand that you were also in favor of stay such a spice back then?

    The entire point I am making is that different classes will be more or less useful in different instances. Unless you give everyone the same tools, this will never change. Hoto favours ranged dps and those that can consistently interrupt. ROFL favors low CD-Burst classes. Gorge favors classes with instant skills.

    The question for lowering aoe damage are either laziness or lack of knowledge. As you were adamant about the nerfs being necessary I simply assumed you haven't gotten the strategy down. I only challange your point that only specified comps can run the instance as bad thing too.

    I think that a) that's inherently not true

    b) even if it was, it would not be a bad thing.


    Seriously. Hoto brings out the classes that now lean towards a more defensive playstyle, contrary to ROFL. You simply cannot take a w/p with you and have everyone survive through the power of two-skill-immortality.

    The idea of balancing is one that is not uniform across the board; and in a game as complex as an MMORPG it is neigh impossible to perfectly balance everything out. If you try and equalize all damage, players will choose the safest path. If you reward the players with less defenses with a slight advantage in damage they will only play the one with more DPS. Hoto brings out exactly that, where, arguably the strongest class in there (Mage/Knight) didn't see much if even any play in all other instances before last patch.


    Every single AoE can be countered. And let's be completely honest here, too: Ranged DPS get enough shit in their faces too, with assassins jumping to the furthest away targets and warriors jumping to a random character - the longer they charge, the higher the damage. This can be countered by stunning the monsters. To prevent oneshots that way, we e.g. use a lasso of the scout or a thunder of the mage to keep the enemies at bay.

    Your entire point, if I understand you correctly, boils down to the fact that melees need to pay more attention than ranged dps. They kind of have to, I agree. Lowering the AoE trivializes the content and increasing it's range makes it incredibly punishing - especially when you consider that one of the best strategies you can take in the instance is to wait out the casts of the aoes and then destroy the monsters safely.

    HOTO rewards you dearly if you take the time to think about a sensible composition, know your class and communicate well. If you do not do all three and aren't insanely overgeared the instance will feel bad. Getting rewarded for playing well and improving is a good thing.

    I still don’t get your problems. Maybe the problem is you have to much meele dps in your guild, or you are not able to play as a team? Who cares how much dmg I did in the full run, when I saved my mates maybe with 150x using a gcd skill and lose abit dmg with using a gcd? When in the same all other don’t die and the run is much faster with that? Make smaller pulls if you can’t Survives those aoes or don’t jump in^^ better I lose abit dmg and save my ppl then just spamm on a key and hope I will not die🤦🏻‍♂️ If this dmg to much for you to handle that, then yes you don’t know what you do. I think 30-40 min for this instance is absolutly ok so I still See not where is your Problem. The Developers did a great job with that ini and in a few weaks all will say again that’s to easy we want a Hader mode.

    I'm not sure if I understand it correctly..,


    But for me the fun in the game is because class-combo's are different to each other, each with their unique advantages and disadvantages.

    As a result of this some class-combo's will be stronger in some parts of the content while that same class-combo would be weaker in other content.

    I think that's what everybody expect.


    The pain is most of the time when there is a class-combo way stronger then others in most of the content of the game.

    But that's what the balancing is for.



    For me there would be way less fun to the game if it wouldn't matter which class-combo's would be in party or raid.

    Then our whole multi-class system would be pointless.. that would be bad game/instance design.


    To me diversity is key &)

    Once again, I disagree with you on many points: D


    Quote


    The entire point I am making is that different classes will be more or less useful in different instances. Unless you give everyone the same tools, this will never change. Hoto favours ranged dps and those that can consistently interrupt. ROFL favors low CD-Burst classes. Gorge favors classes with instant skills.

    You are quite right here, but in each of these cases you just get less, you can come to the instance but you won't get 100% of your dps. On hoto, some classes just have much, much more difficult gameplay, and the gameplay is fictitiously difficult.


    Quote


    The question for lowering aoe damage are either laziness or lack of knowledge. As you were adamant about the nerfs being necessary I simply assumed you haven't gotten the strategy down. I only challange your point that only specified comps can run the instance as bad thing too.

    I know the strategy and I am against it. This is not laziness. It's a bit like you want to take in a shooting tournament and you make blind some of the participants, saying it would be interesting now. If you want a handicap, give it to everyone, I repeat it again.


    Quote


    I think that a) that's inherently not true

    How is that not true? After all, you wrote yourself that you need to find the right team combination.

    Quote


    b) even if it was, it would not be a bad thing.

    Of course, this is a bad thing, if mmo wants to survive, it should have as many players as possible, and in order to do so, it cannot be hermetically closed.

    Quote


    Seriously. Hoto brings out the classes that now lean towards a more defensive playstyle, contrary to ROFL. You simply cannot take a w/p with you and have everyone survive through the power of two-skill-immortality.

    So they're trying to make us change class? I understand it well? Of course, you cannot go with a weak connection, you have to go with something armored, at the same time a mage or a scout does not have to do it and can easily go with a non-survivable combination.


    If you want people to play defensively, let all the players do it.

    Quote


    The idea of balancing is one that is not uniform across the board; and in a game as complex as an MMORPG it is neigh impossible to perfectly balance everything out. If you try and equalize all damage, players will choose the safest path. If you reward the players with less defenses with a slight advantage in damage they will only play the one with more DPS. Hoto brings out exactly that, where, arguably the strongest class in there (Mage/Knight) didn't see much if even any play in all other instances before last patch.

    This is what is happening! You do not see it?! The mage or the scout can go o all dps and choose the strongest combination, and the rogue/warrior/champ must go with something very armored and have dmg less! Where's honesty here? Since some are to go to the armored combination, let the others also go.


    Besides, it is not true about m/k. This combination is not very popular, but in our guild it was seen a lot before the patch and it made a huge damage on each instance. So the advantage of hoto is not to discover m/k.

    Quote


    Every single AoE can be countered. And let's be completely honest here, too: Ranged DPS get enough shit in their faces too, with assassins jumping to the furthest away targets and warriors jumping to a random character - the longer they charge, the higher the damage. This can be countered by stunning the monsters. To prevent oneshots that way, we e.g. use a lasso of the scout or a thunder of the mage to keep the enemies at bay.

    You're kidding? After all, these charges are laughable, as much as I run on hoto, maybe once I saw them kill someone, while hitting aoe destroys me.

    Quote


    Your entire point, if I understand you correctly, boils down to the fact that melees need to pay more attention than ranged dps. They kind of have to, I agree. Lowering the AoE trivializes the content and increasing it's range makes it incredibly punishing - especially when you consider that one of the best strategies you can take in the instance is to wait out the casts of the aoes and then destroy the monsters safely.

    I wouldn't call it "paying attention" and "paying more attention." While hitting from a distance you only consider the fear of the tank, nothing more. You have to be careful when hitting up close and have your eyes everywhere, it's ridiculous.

    And your strategy on our runes is regrettable, because fear is enough for me to kill a whole group of mobs by mage.


    Quote


    HOTO rewards you dearly if you take the time to think about a sensible composition, know your class and communicate well. If you do not do all three and aren't insanely overgeared the instance will feel bad. Getting rewarded for playing well and improving is a good thing.

    Hoto rewards people who chose to fight at a distance, in the end, nothing more rewards: D

    I am amused by the phrase "know your class". Maybe it's better to choose "choose scout/mage" and laugh at those who need to know their class: D

    Okay, I agree to a large extent. But it is not about forcing people to change class to ranged? I understand that a stuner class may be necessary here. The problem is that such a class is needed if you want to play, for example, a rogue, but not a scout anymore. Why do we only force one type of character to change class?


    I would like to note at the same time, for fans of diversity, that such a scout or mage can make pretty dps anywhere, on DL, tikal, inferno, gorge, rofl and HOTO: D

    So perhaps he should read it all over again, I think I have explained it quite extensively.


    The problem is that I have few and generally see few melee deps, and more and more range dps. And in a situation where there are 3 mages in pt, they can beat without problems and do 3x as much as I do, and I have to look for some wonderful combination, and they don't. I am opposed to such an idea. Besides, the truth is, most deps probably care how much dmg they do in full runes.


    Besides, why do I need smaller jackpots if those who are beating from a distance, and most choose the distance, have no problems with it?

    We do it with our magicians in 25 minutes, with my 5 minutes lying on the floor.


    Personally, I think the developers did an medium job with this instance and I hope the new instance won't be a hoto + rng from rofl + fears and darkness from gorge combination.


    Summarizing hoto and your "find tactics" I will only say that I can see here the conclusion "find a good connection and instance like any other or choose mage/scout" and this is the idea that I oppose.

    If you want the hard version so much, let's do it now, aoe range is 300 and it will be hard, at least everyone will have a fair and equal chance. At the moment we have hard for melee and easy for range.

    If ranged players take the same damage as mele, they will be forced to take full control of what happens around them. There will be watching the thrash, running away, etc.

    The instance will become even more interesting.



    AOE 300 :)