Patch 10.1.0.1000 - feedback

Re Mado: "Here I am after some time. Still think needing atleast 8 players for doing tactic in b2 is insane. My suggestion is reducing it to 2 oil and 2 torch instead of 4+4. Is almost impossible for us to reach that many members and all other small guilds would be in the same position. Want to know what people think about this. Cheers. "

I am 100% in favor of removing artificial constrain of having 8 players to be able to run the ini. This does not reward skill or anything else, simple number, I do not understand the logic of having 8 people to od strat + 1-2 players to tank and extra heal.

Mado is 100% correct, you make sure that small guilds will NOT be able to run this ini, no matter how much time/effort/gear they have - this is in my opinion a mistake. We are not asking to make instance easy, we asking you to implement the random change so that less number of people who can still be a good team have chance to complete the instance. For example we did inferno with 5 people, it was hard and took time, but we did it. Please give small guilds a chance.

As per Mado suggestion, please consider changing the number to 2+2 oil and torch or make time much longer so we can use alts if you for some reason don't want to change 4+4 strat.

We are small guild and people spread over different time zones, no one will run Gorge as a pug. I am sure community would benefit from a vibrant server where many people are involved, I am sure you noticed that active server population is probably half what it was before Gorge release, several end-game guilds either completely gone (at least 2) with ppl quiting or merging to other guilds or one big endgame guild inactive.

All I am asking is to get small guilds a fighting chance to do an ini, we understand it will be harder than 12 ppl but we don't want to quit our guild and there are not enough people (at least right now) to have 9-10 ppl to dedicate several hours to try to run it.

Our suggestion for 2nd boss Gorge: reduce strat to 2 oil and 2 torch instead of 4+4
Many thanks for your time!

I still think either the physical defense is ~15 to 20 % too high in comparison to the magical defense in gorge or the permanent attack speed debuffs of the trash mobs disadvantage some classes more than others - or both.
I am not entirely sure, but it is definitly yet unbalanced.

What did you experienced?

I agree with Kalypso. We paid attention to devs right after the first changes but without result.

Quote from MDNCITAJ

I still think either the physical defense is ~15 to 20 % too high in comparison to the magical defense in gorge or the permanent attack speed debuffs of the trash mobs disadvantage some classes more than others - or both.
I am not entirely sure, but it is definitly yet unbalanced.

What did you experienced?

Can't be the atk-speed, since this affects mages/warmages and pdps the same, only warlocks deal "normal" dps while they are slowed, bc they have few casts which can be slowed down. And during most bossfights, there are no slows and still the mdps deal way more dmg than pdps. So it has to be the mdef/pdef ratio or a permanent mdmg-multiplier/pdmg-resistance, which make the difference.
But imo this shouldnt be the point to discuss atm, as u mentioned, the Devs (should) know about this and if they consider it necessary, they will change something.
I think its more important to find a way that more ppl can run gorge whithout making it and its bosses too easy for those who can already farm it. Except some very few things, i like that instance a lot as it is and wouldn't like seeing it changed too much.

As I play very rarely recently, I do not know how recent changes have affected the 2 boss, but after earlier experience instance, Melodic is a lot right. Instance is made for 12 ppl so 10-12 ppl should go to do it in a smaller amount will be hard with DPS though i do not say that it is not possible But here too, I agree with Madox and Heddin. The truth is that there are some guilds also "strong" but not 12 ppl playing a few hours a day at the same time and it is hard to spend a few hours together to work out tactics (work, school, other time zone, own matters). The biggest problem is that, let's be honest, RoM is already years old and players will definitely not be arrivin at a super fast pace. IMO you need to think about whether it will not be better to opt out of the 12-person model for 6 people, where smaller guilds will also be able to go to the end game instance and do it.
About balance... I can only say about Kalypso statement that we wrote about it more than once and we have not senn the balance so maybe now something will change?

if you cant bring together 12 people why dont you bring together your guilds then? why should something be changed if it works? A hardmode instance should be for 12 players, but maybe they can bring out a 6 man version of gorge where only the unrefined items drop so you can at least farm them. without any shards or fragments or stuff.

Quote from Devain

if you cant bring together 12 people why dont you bring together your guilds then? why should something be changed if it works? A hardmode instance should be for 12 players, but maybe they can bring out a 6 man version of gorge where only the unrefined items drop so you can at least farm them. without any shards or fragments or stuff.

Because most of the people have a life unlike you thought and don't wanna stay there to just practice that boss for over several hours.

we are talking about b2 gorge here right? that is basically tosh b1.

To Devain,

I know it is little hard but think about it - tosh b1 is 4 people to do strat, now imagine doubling that to 8 people, now imagine your guild does not have that many people on for hours, what do you think will happen? People cant run, people stop logging and people quit - do you think it helps the server to have less population? That's all we were suggesting, if you don't have anything constructive to so perhaps don't post? Thanks much.

it basicaly requires 2 ppl playing the boss, 8 just to nullify the rng. So it is technicaly playable - but the rng indeed is not healthy.

I would consider a scaling. The boss is anyways easy, so just decrease the torches and oils to raidsize, roundet on 2 ( if u have 5 ppls, u get 2 torches and 2 oil ) - going up to an maximum of 8 ( current state )

I bet it wont change much in the progress, but at least its doable so.

Quote from Exvee

I would consider a scaling. The boss is anyways easy, so just decrease the torches and oils to raidsize, roundet on 2 ( if u have 5 ppls, u get 2 torches and 2 oil ) - going up to an maximum of 8 ( current state )

That would be an interesting way for all doing something in small and big groups.

Interesting idea - and as we know of suntemple events it should be very well realizable.
I'd suggest 3/3 for 7ppl+ and 4/4 for 9ppl+, so a round off of (partymembers-1)/2 with a min./max. of 1 and 4

Dear Devs,

Thanks for decreasing the number of tactic items for 2nd boss in Gorge - once we get team on we will give it a go and hope can now make a progress

Kind regards,
Rakot

I dont like the solution

-"I dont like the solution"

While I am happy boss 2 now needs 3+3 ppl for start compared to 4+4 before, I like the original suggestion by Exvee to scale up the tactic # of items based on the number of people inside the ini, idk how hard it is to implement but if not too hard, it could be something that perhaps can make both sides of the community happy - those who wanted to keep it as is and those of us who wanted to decrease number of items so that less number of ppl can still run it.

Cheers!

Quote from Heddin

-"I dont like the solution"

While I am happy boss 2 now needs 3+3 ppl for start compared to 4+4 before, I like the original suggestion by Exvee to scale up the tactic # of items based on the number of people inside the ini, idk how hard it is to implement but if not too hard, it could be something that perhaps can make both sides of the community happy - those who wanted to keep it as is and those of us who wanted to decrease number of items so that less number of ppl can still run it.

Cheers!

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It will be as always - someone will be there to complain, doesn't matter how you try to change it.

Scaling is a clean solution. BUT i dont like it.
Because:
1. you dont run Gorge with 5 ppl (-> 2x2 objects) If it is scaling like that, ppl just decrease the raidsize for Boss 2 and increase it when B2 is dead and continue the run.
2. I think there should be minimum requirements for this instace, and so 3x3 objects (+ the enhanced length of the event) is too easy for a full raid, and maybe too hard for a small raid. But i mean guys if you cant do B2, then you should rlly work on your event skills and communications

after all b2 is the funniest event in all the custom inis (my opinion)^^

Quote from MDNCITAJ

2. I think there should be minimum requirements for this instace, and so 3x3 objects (+ the enhanced length of the event) is too easy for a full raid, and maybe too hard for a small raid. But i mean guys if you cant do B2, then you should rlly work on your event skills and communications

after all b2 is the funniest event in all the custom inis (my opinion)

I totally agree with this!

I just dont get it, honestly. I didnt see any complains with inferno tactics, 1 in b2, 2 in b3, 2 in b4, but now suddenly if we dont have an 8 people tactic the ini just is too easy and isnt funny, are you kidding? Guess was funny when Pulse needed to take resu guild and some of hades guild and improved took ratata so you guys could do something? Explain this to me because im totally lost.

First of all, i wasnt on this server when Inferno was released.
Secondly, Inferno events were like this from the beginning (I guess?), so they were intended to be like this - Gorge is designed to be way harder and events are based on even more teamplay and communication, u will see while u progress through the instance - and the gear from there is way stronger than from Inferno, relative to Tikal gear.
So there has to be a relation between the effort it takes to get a specific loot as reward - thats why we complained about the poor loot from last boss in the beginning, it was changed, and it was great for some weeks. Now gorge becomes easier and again we get a misrelation between effort and reward.

Concerning our guilds getting those new members...there is way more to this process than u describe right now and in fact getting new members in general is an absolutly natural behaviour of a guild, to grow AND to replace inactive ppl - and btw Pulse AND Improved cleared the instance before adding new/more members, so we did "something" without that.
And this is just the point i wrote about some posts before, dont ask the Devs to make the instance so that it siuts u, adapt to the instance, get new members so u can form a party, capable of clearing gorge!!! Just like we did.

To me it looks like u feel offended here by anything, though this should be a mere discussion where ppl state they different points of opinion concerning gorge/patch...

Inferno had beta tests and opinions on it were collected on tests. Therefore, after the introduction, there was no increase in confusion with the instance. At the new instance (as well as Aldo when someone remembers how this WB looked after release) they ran out of them and the result was not long to wait. Part of the players immediately gave up the game. I do not see the point in accusing the guild because no one in the guild is kept up. In my opinion, someone else is guilty of this. Yes, the publisher. And for the Paradise population not to look like an Insomnia server, changes are needed.This is my point of view.

Inferno events werent like this from the beginning.
Heimdal is much easier to kill right now. Loki is much easier to tank and to survive as melee dps. Why those changes were made? My guess is to make it easier to run for smaller guilds.
I dont understand why do You care so much that others will run this ini too?

I also dont understand this situation:
We dont like the loot -> complain -> devs change it -> everything's fine, we like this
others dont like something else -> complain -> devs change it -> omg this is so awful, why You do this?
So according to You tactics were intended to be like this, and loot wasn't and it's perfectly fine to change loot but not tactics?
It just stinks with hypocrisy.
Gorge is still harder than inferno and events are still based on teamplay and communication. It still takes effort from players, and this effort is rewarded in loot.

I dont mind the changes in loot. more stats = better
I dont mind the changes in b2. We did it before, we do it now. and more ppl run gorge = better
People should be encouraged to play Arcadia not discouraged especially cuz the server is small.

And DEVS please, with next new instance DO BETA TESTS so You and players can avoid all this sh*t and flaming and fights

~Vis ♥

I wont discuss here what is hypocrisy and what is not.
But the poor loot WAS discouraging players, so we wanted a change.
That only 3 guilds could kill b2 yet IS discouraging players, we want a change (yes: WE, i voted for a change here earlier as well, as u might have missed.)
The difference here is, that more loot does not discourage other players, at least did not until now, if it does someone, they are free to say so - but there are still some ppl on this server who like the challenge in running high-end instances and dont do it JUST for the loot, but for the fun they have on the way. I am one of them. So obviously i dont like a boss being changed to be way easier as it was.
And as i already mentioned previously, i would be glad, when more ppl can run gorge, since it brings more activity to the server, but not at the cost of losing fun running the instance myself. U see my point?!
...next time, please read the whole story and dont judge over ppl by a single comment....

1st of all, thanks a lot for changing the amount of torches and oils necessary in b2, taktik is the same, but now smaller groups are able to try it as well. 2 people less running around for the event isn't that big of a deal for bigger groups anyway, so I wouldnt say the boss is now a lot easier because of that. That was simply a great change!

I personally dont like large parties for many reasons. It is often chaotic, stressful and the waiting time is endless. Somebody mentioned the possibility of changing the 12 person model to 6 and I would find it just fantastic. No more long waiting periods until party is full or until everybody is ready and in the ini so it can can finally start. A lot less voices talking at the same time in ts, useless informations and for me a lot more fun. I like a good challenge, but I hate crowds and mess. So pls make hard inis for less ppl or at least possible to run in smaller groups.

Dear Alicia,

Many thanks for your comment, I agree 100%, I am similar to you and always prefer smaller groups where with strong gear and skill you can clear things, this is very rewarding. The boss 2 tactic change to now require 6 ppl instead of 8 to do strat allowed us to finally make it past boss 2 and I know there are few more smaller guilds that are trying it now and should also be able to clear it.

To Vis - I told you in game but since I am posting this (I did not want to post at all after some posts here) - I agree 100% with what you said there, thanks as well for commenting!

Cheers!