We got it! The randomization machine has drawn new values!
I announce the Rogue Season on: Rogue / Warrior 
https://media.tenor.co/videos/…50882b8cf8ce088bcba0d/mp4
Sorry for the mocking tone, but I'm a bit disappointed with how quickly we moved from the idea of nerfing to the idea of boosting 
I support the general changes being made, though I do not enjoy the broad strokes that have been put forth to apply them; imho it wasn't neccessary to nerf all the champs damage, just the ch/m's. That being said, I am glad about the direction of this patch!
Yes, the only thing I'm missing is the nerf on specific combinations (in my opinion, I can be wrong, but I'm thinking about m/ch, m/s, ch/m), but the overall changes are very good, the characters have been greatly enhanced during balancing, this is a step in the right direction.
I also like that the stronger combination got a stronger nerf, the weaker ones got a bit weaker, but the nerf applies to everyone.
Well done DEV's!
I like new changes, thanks for that 
Madox here is a lot of truth in what you say, but I am not saying that the balance is easy, if I remember correctly I even emphasized that it is not. However, I believe that balance has its weaknesses and if you took the steps I suggested, it would simply be easier.
Quotei don't like how you manipulate the rogue/warlock changes by not listing everything.
- Reduced Rogue/Warlock Soul Stab, Ghostly Strike and Dark Soul Smelt damage values to 50%.
- Reduced Rogue/Warlock Soul Stab maximum and Ghostly Strike base damage to 543% and Soul Stab base damage to 470.6% at level 104 and reduced their cost to 15 focus.
- Changed Rogue/Warlock skill Energy Conservation Eye of the Darkness into a passive; Modifies Shadowstab, Low Blow and Wound Attack to inflict Dark Damage, but lowers their damage.
you are just listing buffs and trying to say "they are buffing classes that is already strong" as i understand, but you aren't showing this big nerf to main hits of the class.
That is not manipulate from me, only oversight, i dont remember all changes and i used patchnotes and that:
Reduced Rogue/Warlock Soul Stab, Ghostly Strike and Dark Soul Smelt damage values to 50%.
Reduced Rogue/Warlock Soul Stab maximum and Ghostly Strike base damage to 543% and Soul Stab base damage to 470.6% at level 104 and reduced their cost to 15 focus.
Changed Rogue/Warlock skill Energy Conservation Eye of the Darkness into a passive; Modifies Shadowstab, Low Blow and Wound Attack to inflict Dark Damage, but lowers their damage.
is patchnotes from patch 10.2.1.1252 and I didn't notice it because i looked on post-patchnotes 10.2.1.1252.
Sorry for that, that was my mistake, but i remember beginning r/wrl, that was my favorite combination and i played on r/wrl really much time and my opinion is: he was still OP after this patch too.
Quoteexcept against some classes like; r/s ( i didn't play it after last nerf, but it was quite op before that ), wl/s, wl/wd, s/ch, i disagree with this. r/wl is very strong class in regular raids without many supports, eventhough it has no aoes, being on top of scrut even when it get beaten on aoe parts of instance
I don't know what you want say with that. R/s in this moment still is the strongest rogue. In my raids i dont have many supports 
and r/wrl is totally medium, r/ch r/w r/m eat him and r/s eat all rogues. Additionally in my mind in this moment rofl is full aoe.
Quoteif they start to nerf each combination one by one like you proposed, it will destroy entire process of class balance done up to now. every class combo should be in same line first, then nerf/buff general skills of the class, more likely passive damage skills, to get general class be in same line as other classes.
In this moment balance is weak and we dont have big hope to repair that without methods changes. Maybe we will temporarily disrupt balance temporairty but sometimes we must do one step back to can do two steps forward.
Quote
i believe druid/rogue looks op because it is very easy class to play and there is lesser diversity among the players unlike many other dps classes that 80% of community cries that they are too weak and 20% which knows how to play it thinks they are fine compared to other classes
Druid/rogue is op because is OP, if we have good player on d/r and we have bad player on d/r and they both do too big damage this gives me two conclusions:
1) class is easy about gameplay
2) class is too strong
Kind regards and thanks for discussion
...INTRODUCTION...
Recently we went to the gorge, because the current endgame ini: rofl, is very undemanding, done a thousand times and not as satisfying as it used to be. It is a natural process that happens if you keep farming something. The only rational alternative to endgame instances is gorge. I believe that this is a great instance, tactically demanding, requires a bit of concentration and skill as well as good communication. Unfortunately, the case is that very few people want to do gorge, it is a dragging, monotonous and tiring instance. Even though I like gorge very much, after two runs I get migraines.
...What's the worst about gorge?...
* Stuns
* Fears
*Darkness
* Silence
*E.T.C
We have a wanderer on the rofl, which, if we click it, increases the damage dealt by 10%.
...MY PROPOSITION:...
At the beginning of the gorge, put new wanderer which giving a buff:
* reduced damage dealt by 35%
* resistance to all effects of stuns, fears, etc. (except bosses)
...ADVANTAGE:...
* the instance will still require skill and communication
* will not be any shorter or faster
* it will be much more enjoyable, less tiring and it will be easier to encourage people to conquer the gorge
(I am setting up a new topic because I don't want the post to be lost in the general topic regarding balance)
...A few words about balance...
At the beginning, I would like to point out that my statement is not intended to offend or hurt anyone.
For a long time I have had the impression that the class balance is not as leading as it should be, in short it is bad. Before the class balance, each class had one or two right combinations, for example: the only right rogue was a rogue / mage. Whether the right combinations of individual classes were well-balanced against each other is another question ... I don't think so ...
However, there was a light of hope, a new balance was to come, a new era, something wonderful, a patch that would make whatever you play it will be alright about your dps. In a word, whether you play a rogue / mage or a rogue/ XXX, you will do similar damage on the scale of the entire instance, so it really depends on you what you play, you choose what you play with the most pleasure and you are not punished with a worse result on the scale of the instance because your combination is weaker than others combinations. Conversely, you don't get better results on the instance scale because your combinationn is stronger than others.
In my opinion, it has been a long time since the beginning of the new balance. The new instance was introduced to the game at the end of April last year, the balance began in middle June last year. This means that 10 months have passed. ALMOST A YEAR! I would like to summarize my observations on this subject (you don't have to agree with them, it's just my point of view).
...My point of view...
As I wrote before, there was only one valid combination of a specific class in the past, now the case is that (as my guildmate put it) there are seasons. Seasons when specific class combinations are the only right ones for a long time (I'm looking at doing a top result on an instance), there are some little nerfs of this class, that class, another class, some boosts along the way.
They are often not very accurate, something is boosted too much, something nerfed too weak. Then someone realizes that some combinations are beating too weakly and a decision is made that they need to be reinforced and they get a big boost and a new season begins. During this time, some nerfs again, some boosts there, nerfs too small for those combinations that were too weak before, but now they are too strong. And again, we find something that beats too weakly, boost it strongly, a new season begins ... ..
...Present Balance idea...:
Briefly summarizing, at the beginning there is a combination that just beat too hard, it gets a nerf so big that it often gets one of the weaker combinations of the class, then there is ANOTHER weak combination , give it a big kick to catch up with the top of the class. The combinations is too strong. This is an important moment, the combination should be nerfed to the level of the remaining combinations, unfortunately this is often not the case. Usually the combinations is insufficiently nerfed. Then other weak combinations are found and it is boosted so that it catches up with the one you just created. Boosts too much, then nerfs too weak and so on. Finally, it looks like new, stronger combinations are being created and the power of the party is going up all the time. What is happening like this?
First of all, what I wrote about, there are seasons during which you play for example. r / wrl, then r / wd, then r / d, then r / w, then r / ch, now r / s. I translate on rogues because I know them best. The second effect of all this is that, as I wrote, the power of the party grows (not through better equipment, through balance) and at the same time the endgame content stands still and is simply less demanding, that's why str / str from the highest instance in the game can be purchased for 1k dias, what is funny.
Additionally, there is frustration, you make very good equipment, invest dias in high tiers and you do it to get better results. You found yourself (like me) a rogue who you play best and you would like to play with him and have better results because you have better eq. Meanwhile, because of the wrong balance, there are still combinations that beat harder, much harder. A perfect example is r / s. I went to the r / d instance (which not so long ago was a really good rogue) and what turned out? Patch 10.4.0.4007, r / s rebuild. And suddenly someone with a similar eq as me scored almost 3 times as much as me, and two people with equipment twice as small as mine also scored a lot more than me. I have gold gear from rofl in t13, one of them had red from a rofl in t9-10. How is it possible? The combination was stronger 2-3 times than the others. How? How did this happen? Nobody tested it? Skill values were drawn by a randomizing machine? I understand to make a combination that is too strong, it is not easy to rebuild an existing combination in such a way that it is well-balanced. However, I believe the error values are in the order of a maximum of 30%, not 200-300%. As for r / s, today, I don't know exactly when patch 10.4.0.4007 came out, but it's been 6 patches already and it's still too strong. In a moment it will be put aside, it will not be moved and the fun will start again, we will find a new combination that is too weak (as previously mentioned r / s)
My proposition:
As Tywin Lannister would say, "Madness and Stupidity." I believe that this is a vicious circle from which to go. The mistake was made at the very beginning, we already had some balance, somehow this endgame looked like. Instead of turning everything upside down, those combination should be balanced with respect to each other, for example the only right r / m in relation to the s / wd, etc. Then, within each class, introduce one by one combinations one by one. Rebuild the rogue / warrior and balance it to the level of r / m (I'm talking about the result in the instance scale), then if it succeeds, introduce for example r / s and balance it to the level of r / m ... Etc. in relation to the predetermined determinant. Unfortunately, it did not happen and it became a brothel, it is not known what is the determinant of a depression. For example, I will go r / p now and hit less than I would have captured on r / s. The question is, does it mean that r / s is too strong? Or maybe the r / p is too weak? This question accompanies me throughout the balance. Who to relate to? What beats right?
I observe the balance thread and see such a tendency that someone who knows magicians says that, for example, some rogue beats too hard, or vice versa, some scouts says that some magician beats too hard. Usually the people who speak have no idea about the second class, not always, we have people like Lutine here who play and magicians and rogues and scouts and something else and cover the subject. But I think it's high time to change this because it is full of misinformation and class interests. When someone plays only a rogue like me and embraces him very well, sometimes you fall into such a trap that you do not see that your combination is actually too strong and you say to yourself: "I have a good grip on the class, I beat well". Yes, this is true, but not always and sometimes it actually turns out that the combination was a bit too strong.
My suggestion is to change the way of balancing, I would like it not to turn out that when the new instance is released, the balance will still not be finished, and in my opinion this is what it promises. I propose to break balance topic down into separate class topics. Where everyone will speak within a given class, a separate topic for rogues about rogues and a separate topic for magicians about magicians. Let the creators of the balance choose one correct combination from each class. For example for the r / d rogue, for the m / d mage etc, they will balance them against each other. And then separately let me balance the rest of the rogue's combinations to the r / d level, and the rest of the mage's combinations to the m / d level. And when I, as a rogue, know (because it will be decided) how much more or less he should do, I will be able to give meaningful feedback because I will have a point to refer to.
...There is a beautiful slogan: "stop boost, start nerf"...
...So as not to be groundless, example...:
To sum up, at this point r / wrl is average dps, it is neither very weak not very strong, it just is and is able to do some result on the instance. However, if you compare it to the r / wrl at the beginning of the balance, when it was totally OP, it is a lot stronger in this moment. Really much stronger. Since then he was nerfed because he was too powerful, then he got boosts, which made him much stronger than he was at the beginning, and yet the current balance is just average, I'll risk a statement that something went wrong.
"You should have mixed tank gear with your dps gear"
How can i mixed dps gear with tank gear on class which cant use plate?
Maybe by using jewelry, cape and wings of your full tank. Thats 7 pieces which should compensate your 7 lether pieces I think.
That is true, but i didnt have tank jewelry and i created tank jewelry, wings, dagger with 3xsta/sta and 3xsta/dex because that was much better like 5xsta/sta + sta/deff, and that wasn't enough to tank.
"You should have mixed tank gear with your dps gear"
How can i mixed dps gear with tank gear on class which cant use plate? 
Hatred
Cost: 30 Focus
Cooldown: 30 seconds
Increases your aggro by 186% for 12 seconds.
That will be really nice on r/k too, can be with CD 10 min, i really need this on Heimdall for example 
Thanks for that
Answer is easy: not worth it. We had a tank with plate gear, he sold plate, bought chain dps gear and he had better aggro, better dmg, more deff and for him better gameplay than in plate gear.
Champion should need new gear (not dps) to tank, but if he dont need, r/k shouldn't need too. If r/k will not be tank then he should be good dps like any rogue, in this moment r/k is crap class.
That is my observation.
Display MoreDisplay MoreHey,
in my observation, r/k is really bad dps in this moment and he is crap tank.
About dps i will be silent because r/k should be tank in my opinion. I have ultimate t13 gear (4-2 dex-str), i cant tank rofl and inferno. I have jewellery set, raksha dagger and wings with stats:
Sta/sta rofl, gorge, inferno and Sta/dex rofl, gorge, inferno.
With this and with reduction from p/d i can tank inferno. Rofl with sigils is impossible, maybe if i will have full dex/dex gear or sta/sta + sta/dex i will can this but that will be crap gear only for r/k. For example champion can tank in full dps gear. Rogue dps gear is 4-2 or 3-3. R/k have small amount of deff, zero dodge, zero evaporation, have only one reduction (35% duration: 10 sec cd: 2 min). Additionally he is only combination with knight which cant use shield of discipline (s/k cant use too).
My propositions about r/k:
1) let him do dmg without tank trasformation
2) let him use weaker form shields of discipline without shield or let him use shield
3) increase duration of Holy Light Protection or reduce CD
4) maybe sth like on k/r - healing from dodges (but he dont have dodges
5) Permanent reduction dmg - 20%
I dont need all changes, that are only my propositions about what we can do to upgrade r/k gameplay and utility. That is only my experience.
Best regards and invite to the discussion
Personally I am totally against skills mixing roles with just 1 gear. That's why I also don't want r/k to have full tank ability with full dps gear.
R/k is an offtank in my eyes who can definitly tank a boss for a short time without problems
Sadly I cannot say something about dps. Need to test it soon.
I want to mention that full knight tanks cannot switch to dps with 1 skill;) so please let the tank role at classes with full tank equip
Kind regards
"I want to mention that full knight tanks cannot switch to dps with 1 skill;)"
Yea, but champion can
I agree with you about mixing roles, but if champion can be better tank than knight in dps gear, can heal in dps gear. So why r/k cant tank? Champion dont must create new gear (for example 3x sta/sta + 3x str/str) so why r/k must create new gear. But okey, what if i will have new gear only for r/k? Class will be weaker tank than champion and knight. Still less amount of deff, zero dodges, zero evaporation, cant use shield of discipline. I want see on tank only knight, but if champion can tank in dps gear, let r/k tank in dps gear or forbid this on champion too.
Idea with offtank is not nice for me because we dont need offtank anywhere in this moment. So if we are against mixing roles lets change r/k in only dps, that will be nice too. About mixing gear, in my gear on k/r and on r/k (full tank tranformation) i can do the same dps
In my opinion in this moment tank skills on r/k are totally crap with zero utility, so we should improve this skills or remove and upgrade dps possibilities. I dont know anybody who want play on r/k, propably because he is the weakest dps (about rogues) and the weakest tank, r/p is better
Kind regards
Hey,
in my observation, r/k is really bad dps in this moment and he is crap tank.
About dps i will be silent because r/k should be tank in my opinion. I have ultimate t13 gear (4-2 dex-str), i cant tank rofl and inferno. I have jewellery set, raksha dagger and wings with stats:
Sta/sta rofl, gorge, inferno and Sta/dex rofl, gorge, inferno.
With this and with reduction from p/d i can tank inferno. Rofl with sigils is impossible, maybe if i will have full dex/dex gear or sta/sta + sta/dex i will can this but that will be crap gear only for r/k. For example champion can tank in full dps gear. Rogue dps gear is 4-2 or 3-3. R/k have small amount of deff, zero dodge, zero evaporation, have only one reduction (35% duration: 10 sec cd: 2 min). Additionally he is only combination with knight which cant use shield of discipline (s/k cant use too).
My propositions about r/k:
1) let him do dmg without tank trasformation
2) let him use weaker form shields of discipline without shield or let him use shield
3) increase duration of Holy Light Protection or reduce CD
4) maybe sth like on k/r - healing from dodges (but he dont have dodges )
5) Permanent reduction dmg - 20%
I dont need all changes, that are only my propositions about what we can do to upgrade r/k gameplay and utility. That is only my experience.
Best regards and invite to the discussion
Hmmm...
Why? That is first step to global? Maybe remove npc?
R/w have stronger single target dmg and stronger aoe than r/d, r/w will get nerf on aoe, r/d will get nerf on sigle+aoe (dota) and nerf on aoe? So r/w still will be stronger on single and aoe than r/d. I'm wrong?
R/w need nerf aoe in my mind. I want see what Lutine can do on r/d but in this moment r/d have nice balance in my eyes. R/wd is too strong, in my opinion he need reduce dmg +-10%.
Thanks for run, that is nice info about rogues
If my observations are different i should say why. I agree with you, that is why i propose go rofl together, then we can compare rogues + our gameplay. Maybe my feeligs are bad, maybe i have a right, maybe not. Connected run (Lutine, Nyex, Snickars, Merkur, Hanzou, Ramer) propaply will get solution this problem. In my opinion r/w and r/d are too strong, we can come on r/d (Merkur) and r/w (Hanzou, Ramer), you can come on r/p, r/wd, r/ch. If our point of view is bad then we are lost, but if we will do more dmg, then we will find op rogue. This idea is really interesting for me.
"Personally I have already tested all rogue combinations. Unfortunately, we don´t have many rogues in the guild that we cannot compare all combinations at the same time in one run."
So we can go together
Yea, i agree with you partly.
a)John have enough good gear in my mind, Elprese have ultimate t12
b) Snickars is not important, he was on d/wrl or d/r if im not mistaken
c = a Elprese have +- the same eq
But okey, what about this?
https://ibb.co/xHmMN1k r/w vs r/d?
So where is "perfectly balanced"? 1,5kkk more than mage? And where is r/p on scr? Dps on r/p is really bad on my mind. If my memory is good r/p will get next nerf yea?
For example, that is our scr.
Full rofl:
Merkur - r/d
Hanzou - r/w
The same gear
R/w (Ramer) vs random party.
What we want to say is that we compare rouges betwen rouges and in this comparison r/w and r/d are much more superior than other combos (maybe r/wd also as Lutine mentioned) and that should be fixed.
Oh and to say so, we compare full run dmg output not one single burst on mobs/bosses.First: I compare single boss and full run damage.
Second: rogue/warden was 1 example. Did you ever played rogue/priest or rogue/champ for example. Rogue/Champ is maybe worst aoe class in my example but it is still good
I play all classes except auto-attack classes. That is why I cannot say anything about /Magen and /warlock
"Rogue/Champ is maybe worst aoe class in my example but it is still good", he is bad, yea... Maybe r/ch should be nerf too, i didn't played on r/ch because i dont have weapon, but if he is dps-support, dps on r/ch should be nerf
"Second: rogue/warden was 1 example"
Please compare r/w vs r/wd.
My question:
Did you ever played r/wrl? R/s? R/m? R/k? Where are they on scr?
Second question:
If on fast runs (where r/w cant get enough time to full burst) he is the best dps (Lutine have better gear than Snickars) so what will happen if r/w will have enough time for that?
Lutine, maybe we can go rofl together? Weekend? That can be really interesting and after that we will get good comparison about rogues and different gameplays.
I saw such a policy of change on Global, pay to win, RIP for me
