Rogue Class [Feedback]

    Quote from robopoke

    The description is old and not updated. For example even the part about "Cannot use during combat" is not true anymore.

    One aspect that i fount really odd in the Rogue/Bard is the behavior of Premeditation. Specifically, it vanishes upon executing "Combo throw + throw". Conversely, when initiating "combo throw" with any other ability, the buff effect persists for the entire 10 seconds.

    Videos :

    Quote from moncef
    Quote from robopoke

    The description is old and not updated. For example even the part about "Cannot use during combat" is not true anymore.

    One aspect that i fount really odd in the Rogue/Bard is the behavior of Premeditation. Specifically, it vanishes upon executing "Combo throw + throw". Conversely, when initiating "combo throw" with any other ability, the buff effect persists for the entire 10 seconds.

    Videos :

    The behaviour of the first scenario makes sense. But the behaviour in the second video looks like a bug. Is it just a visual bug or not? Does this only happen for Rogue/Bard?

    Quote from robopoke
    Quote from moncef

    One aspect that i fount really odd in the Rogue/Bard is the behavior of Premeditation. Specifically, it vanishes upon executing "Combo throw + throw". Conversely, when initiating "combo throw" with any other ability, the buff effect persists for the entire 10 seconds.

    Videos :

    The behaviour of the first scenario makes sense. But the behaviour in the second video looks like a bug. Is it just a visual bug or not? Does this only happen for Rogue/Bard?

    No, it's not a visual Bug, literally all of your skills can crit within 10 seconds. You can try this yourself. For Rogue/Bard, this bug lets you literally have 12 hits of Wound Attack with 50% more damage and ensures that all other skills always crit.

    i don't know actually if this problems occurs with other classes or not, but what i'm sure about is that buff is totally bugged. because even with rogue/priest sometimes the buff effects doesn't go away even when i use more then 10 stacks within the 10 seconds.

    Video :

    • Official Post
    Quote from moncef
    Quote from robopoke

    The behaviour of the first scenario makes sense. But the behaviour in the second video looks like a bug. Is it just a visual bug or not? Does this only happen for Rogue/Bard?

    No, it's not a visual Bug, literally all of your skills can crit within 10 seconds. You can try this yourself. For Rogue/Bard, this bug lets you literally have 4 hits of Wound Attack with 50% more damage and ensures that all other skills always crit.

    i don't know actually if this problems occurs with other classes or not, but what i'm sure about is that buff is totally bugged. because even with rogue/priest sometimes the buff effects doesn't go away even when i use more then 10 stacks within the 10 seconds.

    Video :

    This is client side visual bug, other players wouldn't see you are inflicting critical damage I assume. It will be fixed with next patch.


    Greetings

    no it's not client side visual bug, other players can also see you criting, here is a demonstration of it, from the point of view of other player

    Image :



    PoV of other Player inside an ini (in case we assume all Punchbags and baltons in Itnal Camp causes visual bugs :

     

    Quote from robopoke

    Regarding Rogue/Knight.


    I know that there is change planned in the future with no ETA. That is why I just wanna come with a quick fix with low effort but high return so this class is more playable as Tank before it gets its full update.

    Can you make Dismarment an AoE aggro skill? Thats it. Thanks!

    It's currently the only outlaw that can use ring gear, and I don't think it's worth changing that. If you take the fact that he's not bad in leather.

    After paying more attention in iniruns I also saw that in rare occasions the last stack stays but it is difficult to reproduce constantly.


    I think if the next skill used would consume x stacks instantly and your current stack is between (x-1) and (x+1) the last stack stays. So for Wound Attack your stack has to be between 2 and 4.


    Is this abusable? I dont think so unless you want to wait for your stacks to fall within the Intervall which can lose you dps. Nonetheless, it can boost dps in some scenarios so should be fixed sooner or later.

    Quote from rascellian

    R/S is still waiting for an adjustment of assassins rage. Just add range weapon damage please, you actually wanted to nerf offhand dmg only.

    Quote from paluzara

    Anything planned for R/S since now with assasins Rage only buffing main hand, mostly all of R/S elite skill are not getting benefit from it.

    With p/s and many other classes, everything is obvious. They need to be changed, somewhere to change something, somewhere to raise a little damag. Because when choosing a class, no matter what anyone says, the choice is obvious, if you want to play, for example, p / s, and not p / sorcerer or bards, you will lag behind in damage. So it is with warriors, scouts(which I don't play at all), magicians, and so on.


    Therefore, an individual rework of classes is necessary, but by no means a mass one. You need to set a standard (take one strong class as a basis), and bring the rest to its level (within the framework of the damage-survival-utility ratio).

    Turning to the administration, I would be happy to help with this, I do not have a subjective opinion, like 99% of the players, I care about the balance a priori, and I have a lot of experience in this area (I was engaged in the balance of classes and brought it up to 80%, in turn, when the absolute balance in Arcadia has only 20-25% of the bundles of classes).

    Sincerely, Best.

    I'd like to share my thoughts on the rogue in the current situation. Personally, I believe the rogue is extremely overpowered with Murk and definitely needs some nerfs. On the other hand, the katana seems quite useless since there's no real benefit from using it, even with a 100% perfect timing


    After Murk was introduced, everyone was certain that certain classes would become extremely strong (e.g. RW, RM), and that has remained true despite the nerfs Murk has received. These classes are still extremely overpowered. Even before Murk was introduced, these two classes were already too strong


    What's interesting is that not only did these two classes become stronger, but literally all the other rogues did as well, except for the Rogue/Scout. as this class simply doesn't have elemental damage scaling


    Meanwhile, the Katana isn't worth playing in any possible case with any class, primarily due to the extremely high impact of elemental damage gained from The Murk and its high sustain.


    that's why in my opinion, the necessary nerfs for Murk are:


    1-Reduction of the elemental damage percentage of the weapon.

    2-Increase in the weapon's base attack speed



    Meanwhile, the Katana needs significant buffs:


    1-Add an elemental damage buff (2% for each stack of Perfect Slice).

    2-Increase the bleed effect of Perfect Slice.

    3-Increase the damage equivalent to the off-hand when using the Katana.

    4-Allow the Usage of Perfect Slice while under a cast (combo throw, Fast draw,which is crucial for RB and RS).


    i still believe that even if Perfect Slice received more buffs and became extremely powerful, it remains balanced as it's the most challenging and difficult skill to play with in the entire game. This is especially true after the change to Perfect Slice (where you lose all three stacks upon failure). Particularly in crowded environments (+6 players ), it becomes incredibly difficult to notice the mark or hear its sound (e.g. Additional sounds effects like auto attacks, character footsteps, WB title flame sounds, aura buff, or even when you're in voice chat with the guild) all contribute to an extremely challenging situation.


    I believe it's not fair that the Katana offers practically no benefit, neither in sustain nor in burst, even with perfect timing which is nearly impossible due to the distractions I've mentioned before. Meanwhile, using Murk allows you to effortlessly perform well in every situation without stressing over anything

    I think, if they change bleed from katana, it should be enough, if u already seen new sets and buffs that sets will give you, katana should be a bit stronger.

    Taking a person who a priori didnt play endgame in CoA to “balance” is wrong (and that’s the kindest thing I can say).

    Because the statement that r/wl is better than r/s requires at least a comment. And if we say about one of the strongest rogue combinations (r/w) that it is weak, then the question of the tester can be eliminated in its infancy

    Great Post. Asking for nerf will always be unpopular so kudos for that. However, we do not want to nerf Bard/Rogues and Scout/Rogues by accident. So the simple solution is to nerf Rogues offhand damage (Offhand Mastery) from 48,5% to 40% without directly nerfing The Murk.


    I just wanted to add that Katana is slightly stronger in absolute fullburst, because of atkspeedcap and Assassin's Rage only boosting main weapon. Also Rogues with Katana (ignore The Murk for a sec) are already strong in overall meta. So as Baboon said If the DoT-damage gets boosted and your suggestion 4) Perfect Slices is usable even while channeling (Fast Draw and Combo Shot) , it could already be enough.


    I agree with your idea of nerfing Offhand Mastery. Nerfing The Murk as a whole could negatively impact other classes that aren't as strong.


    However, it's true that the Katana might have slightly stronger in absolute full burst damage for certain classes. The real question lies in whether it's worth using it for a 5% or 6% increase in output damage. as There's no guarantee you'll receive all the necessary buffs (e.g., SA) + risk of missing out on the perfect slice, in my opinion, makes it not worth the risk.


    I remember when the katana was newly introduced, I could achieve roughly the same damage with a dagger in sustain without using perfect slice at all.



    I believe the katana would truly become a viable choice when it can deliver 90% or even 95% of the damage of (dual daggers), even with a 50% or 60% miss rate, and a 10-15% increase in output damage compared to dual daggers with perfect timing in sustained combat.


    Some might disagree, but in my humble opinion, I think the katana shouldn't just be a weapon for burst damage. The challenge of playing as a rogue with a katana lies in being consistently aware and focused throughout the entire run.


    I mentioned in my previous discussion that should be a 6% elemental damage increase (with 3 stacks) which's might not suffice for the katana to achieve the desired 10-15% boost with perfect timing in sustained combat. meanwhile another weapon permanently providing 11-12% elemental damage, with higher DPS, presents a strong case. The damage from perfect slice alone isn't enough to counterbalance the impact of using dual daggers, especially during trash fights.


    Even before initiating this discussion, I considered the idea of nerfing the offhand damage rune and the offhand damage badge title. These buffs significantly elevate the overall damage output of certain classes, especially the RM, RW, and RWl.


    However, when examining classes like RcH, RP, and RWd, which don't have offhand weapon scaling, it's notable how strong they are in terms of damage output. This strength largely stems from the permanent 11-12% elemental damage they possess.


    It seems there's a debate about whether the rogue using the Murk weapon is balanced, with some arguing that only a few rogue classes can contend with warriors , K/Wl or M/W However, when considering the referenced warriors, it's essential to examine


    warrior/rogue: who's literally weak everywhere


    warrior/druid: who's only powerfull in burst ,and it performances fall down if the run is slow? due to it extremly weak sustain


    warrior/bard or warrior/champion :who has good in trash / sustain, in which almost all rogues can compete with them


    warrior/scout? i'm wondering who can compete with this class except 3 or 4 players in the whole server?



    Taking a quick glance at the overall performance of rogue and warrior players, based on my observations, an average rogue player often outperforms an average warrior player. This could be attributed to the simplicity of the tools available to rogues.


    For instance, consider the RWl class, where over 50% of its damage comes from an autoattack and soul extract. In comparison, warriors handle more complex kit and weapon combinations, making it slightly more challenging for an average warrior player to achieve the class's maximum potential.


    Knight/Warlock highlights a significant issue within certain gameplay dynamics. shine exceptionally in DC but falters in other content like FA or Necro , where bosses significantly contribute to overall damage and their extended survival makes short-term burst less impactful.

    besides the fact the this class requies gear investement which's only usable for K/Wl , as K/Wl with leather or chain is just too weak


    Mage/Warrior class falls into a similar category. It demands substantial investment in resources to maximize its potential.

    I think it's okay if these classes deal more damage because they require a lot of resources and investment. It seems fair to me that if players put in a significant effort and spend more on these classes, they should get better damage in return.


    meanwhile you can literally make a tier 14/15 Murk , which is stronger for literally all rogues and you can compete in every single run , every single group setup ,regardless of the run's tempo due to the flexability the rogue has.

    As I play as a scout, more and a rogue, I will allow myself to express my opinion on the subject - katana and dagger.

    So, changing anything will destroy the current balance, which in my opinion has been the most stable for several months. Katana is better than daggers on r/wd and r/s, and at the same time playable on the rest of the combinations. End of story - it doesn't need buffs and combos because it will exacerbate these two classes. As for r/wl, r/w, or r/m, which are supposedly so powerful, yes, they are strong, but r/wl performs best on Nom, WB, and that's where its power ends because it lacks AoE damage (except for one skill). Therefore, this class is unique.

    R/w, supposedly so powerful - take classes that are typically strong in AoE (s/m, b/r, b/ch) and see how well r/w will perform - it won't impress you, and it will even look like a support class. R/w can wreak havoc when it has time to unfold, but when it doesn't, the class is at least good if not average.

    Just as katanas, daggers also have their place in the game. Don't impose katanas on all classes just because you want to. Diversity has its benefits. No one forces a gun on scouts, and it could be done (I won't comment on bows and crossbows because they are rotational weapons, and in most combinations, it's good to have both a bow and a crossbow). In summary, the katana is strong, and it seems well-balanced. It allows achieving powerful results on r/wd, and with perfect gameplay, it's not much weaker on most rogue combinations.

    Quote from Ramer

    As I play as a scout, more and a rogue, I will allow myself to express my opinion on the subject - katana and dagger.

    So, changing anything will destroy the current balance, which in my opinion has been the most stable for several months. Katana is better than daggers on r/wd and r/s, and at the same time playable on the rest of the combinations. End of story - it doesn't need buffs and combos because it will exacerbate these two classes. As for r/wl, r/w, or r/m, which are supposedly so powerful, yes, they are strong, but r/wl performs best on Nom, WB, and that's where its power ends because it lacks AoE damage (except for one skill). Therefore, this class is unique.

    R/w, supposedly so powerful - take classes that are typically strong in AoE (s/m, b/r, b/ch) and see how well r/w will perform - it won't impress you, and it will even look like a support class. R/w can wreak havoc when it has time to unfold, but when it doesn't, the class is at least good if not average.

    Just as katanas, daggers also have their place in the game. Don't impose katanas on all classes just because you want to. Diversity has its benefits. No one forces a gun on scouts, and it could be done (I won't comment on bows and crossbows because they are rotational weapons, and in most combinations, it's good to have both a bow and a crossbow). In summary, the katana is strong, and it seems well-balanced. It allows achieving powerful results on r/wd, and with perfect gameplay, it's not much weaker on most rogue combinations.

    I am very curious how you came to the conclusion, that Katana is better than Dagger+WB offhand on Rogue/Warden and Rogue/Scout.


    Rogue/Warden:

    DPS in singletarget is actually equal assuming you have perfect hits. Dagger is better in the first 10-15 seconds because the hits are stronger while Katana has to "win" back the lack of elemental damage with Perfect Slices which come later into play. However, Dagger has less Aggro and more precision which is important for overall damage. Also you never have perfect hits in the first place.


    DPS in AoE is better with Dagger. Perfect Slice's impact in overall AoE-damage is too weak.


    Rogue/Scout:

    This class does most damage with Gun. Also while you are channeling Fast Draw, Perfect Slice is not usable. In addition to this, thanks to how damage on Gear and %dmg buffs work (Rogue/Scout has many of those buffs) Dagger hits are just simply stronger than Katana even on non-elemental skills. I have tested this in great detail.


    Rogue/Warrior:

    "R/w, supposedly so powerful - take classes that are typically strong in AoE (s/m, b/r, b/ch) and see how well r/w will perform - it won't impress you, and it will even look like a support class. R/w can wreak havoc when it has time to unfold, but when it doesn't, the class is at least good if not average."


    Bard/Champion and Bard/Rogues are strong in AoE yes, but have too high Cooldowns. The same applies to Scout/Mage. Rogue/Warrior has very low Cooldowns with the combination of Berserk and any atkspeed buff (Strong Stimulant, 20% Atkspeedpotion or Fervent Attack).


    Rogue/Warrior is also not that slow. If you know that in an AoE burst situation mobs will die quickly, you simply use Decay (no GCD) and skip Death Touch/Bloodless. But of course, if you waste 2 seconds buffing for ~10% atk and ~10% dmg but mobs are already dead, you can consider it a support class :)

    "Just as katanas, daggers also have their place in the game. Don't impose katanas on all classes just because you want to. Diversity has its benefits."


    The fact of the matter is, that there is no diversity right now with WB Offhand overpowering Katanas in most situations. In the exceptions (Rogue/Warden, Rogue/Scout) it is in best equal to Katana. The afromentioned requests are to restore diversity for Rogues, such that some classes perform better with WB Offhand, while others perform better with Katana.


    Also one last point that people seem to ignore: Two weapons allow you to use 2x Curse XIII runes for Premeditation. Now, many players want to keep their damage rune for ~0.5% damage. But ask yourself do you prefer a 0.8 second or 1.3 second premeditaion?

    Quote from Ramer

    As I play as a scout, more and a rogue, I will allow myself to express my opinion on the subject - katana and dagger.

    So, changing anything will destroy the current balance, which in my opinion has been the most stable for several months. Katana is better than daggers on r/wd and r/s, and at the same time playable on the rest of the combinations. End of story - it doesn't need buffs and combos because it will exacerbate these two classes. As for r/wl, r/w, or r/m, which are supposedly so powerful, yes, they are strong, but r/wl performs best on Nom, WB, and that's where its power ends because it lacks AoE damage (except for one skill). Therefore, this class is unique.

    R/w, supposedly so powerful - take classes that are typically strong in AoE (s/m, b/r, b/ch) and see how well r/w will perform - it won't impress you, and it will even look like a support class. R/w can wreak havoc when it has time to unfold, but when it doesn't, the class is at least good if not average.

    Just as katanas, daggers also have their place in the game. Don't impose katanas on all classes just because you want to. Diversity has its benefits. No one forces a gun on scouts, and it could be done (I won't comment on bows and crossbows because they are rotational weapons, and in most combinations, it's good to have both a bow and a crossbow). In summary, the katana is strong, and it seems well-balanced. It allows achieving powerful results on r/wd, and with perfect gameplay, it's not much weaker on most rogue combinations.

    Is anyone force you to play with katana, i guess no... , but right now, we have a situation that katana is weaker than daggers and there is few reasons why:

    • n% of elemental damage depending on your tier weapon; (and its stable,
      when with katana, you need to stack first to get 6% damage). But, as ItemPreview says new Orkham sets will bring to us a new benefits and one of them will increase main hand damage depending on tier, if you wears katana or only one weapon without off-hand.
    • Off-hand with The Murk gets 0.5 attack speed with a couple of buffs, like Warp Charge and Stimulator or Elven Agility. Now with this benefits lets take a look at Rogue/Priest with defferent weapons. The damage dealing by R/P is mainly affected by main hand and if you wear a katana your Sinister Methods will deals less damage then if you wear daggers, because with daggers you deal double hit from main and off-hand, since The Murk has 0.5 attack speed you deal more Sinister Methods then with katana. Same as on Rogue/Warlock with white hits.
    • Off-hand damage scaling. Katana has own off-hand damage scaling that not affected by runes and titles. It means that Rogue/Warlock skills like Soul Extraction and Life Devourer deals more damage.
    • Stats.... :|

    So, there is only one suggesiton before Orkham will come, increase the damage dealt by bleeding from a katana to close a gap between white attacks.

    :/


    Katana is currently "weaker" then dagger , yes but not cause of the Damage / elemental /atkspeed bonuses or whatever , mostly (from my experience) cause Mobs / Bosses just die to fast to make the special Part "Perfect Slice" usable/worthwile with it.

    I excpect a meta change anyways with Orkham to Katana -> Mob/Bosses live longer better uptime on Buff / better energy recovery etc.


    Katana has its own unique mechanic that is just not working in current Meta , that does not mean 2x dagger is overall superior.



    If you identify a UFO as a UFO , then it becomes an FO. Unless it has landed , then it is simply an -> O

    Cookie 2 Haha 1

    take some time and go try a sustain in punching bags with a murk and Katana with literally every class (which stays alive the whole time ) ,then you'll change your mind <3

    I want to share my experience regarding chain classes and leather classes.


    I played Leather last week


    Scout/Rouge

    Scout/Mage


    Rouge/Priest

    Rouge/Champion

    Rouge/Warrior


    Every rogue class except rogue/champion with katana and 2 daggers


    It's like Moncef said it's very easy to do a lot of damage. Each of these classes has a good substain in trash. And the boss damage is good too.


    #1 [R/W] even on the boss he was good

    [R/P] - which was recently buffed a bit performs wonderfully a bit weaker than [R/W].

    [R/CH] - very good in singletarget substain and burst (second class behind [R/WL] I would say. Trash is okay and has a great CC.

    [R/B] - Good burst dmg slightly weaker than [R/CH] but stronger in trash substain (the speed of the group plays a decisive role here).

    [S/R] - good trash substain and boss burst dmg was good for me. [R/CH] [R/W] [R/P] [R/B] others seemed a bit stronger to me overall. In summary, there is nothing wrong with the class.

    [S/M] - Good substain and aoe fullburst. Okay dmg on the boss.

    Okay for me.


    My favourite was the [R/P] and the [R/CH]

    I like the gameplay and the mechanics.


    Now for chain classes


    I like to play warriors almost exclusively in the ini.


    In our inigroups Darkcore as an example are 2-3 scouts mostly and 1 Rouge 1-3 mpds of magecombinations like [P/S] [M/P] [M/R][M/S] [S/M] [M/WL] [M/W]<- (i will get hate for this but i think the substain is a bit too high) ps. it is not that expensive to build buff gear or the difference from 100k buffgear to 300k buffgear is not immensely high -> dmg should be higher than other mage dmg but not outreach everyone.


    But let's leave that aside for now, as the topic is a different one.


    In these group compositions I have some problems keeping up as a warrior, I have to push a lot and play aggressively, which doesn't rule out deaths. And even with alternating target I benefit almost 0 in the trash from bleeding with spear or katana because the mobs die in <2 seconds.


    There are only 3 classes I can keep up with in our setups in 12-People Inis that is [W/S], [W/B] and [K/WL] (which I almost never play because I find it boring.


    [W/Warden] is ok in trash in boss i got outdamged(overall below average)


    [W/BARD] good burst trash dmg and good substain in singletarget and in fullburst boss i get caught up by the other dds (overall okay)


    [W/S] the biggest advantage in our runs is the fast damage which is also comparatively high and the possibility to attack from a distance but playing the class with different weapons depending on the sitaution (spear,katana,1h,shield,2H sword) is annoying and I have to make a lot of effort to keep up.


    The bleeding of the warrior, especially if you play with spear and have dealt with the scaling a bit, is strong yes, but there are not too many situations where you can make use of it, at least in our runs.


    I don't think there is a need to reduce the bleeding.

    Unless you design it in such a way that bleeding is completely omitted and instead buff the normal attacks of the warriors.

    But 100% support the opinion of some players that bleeding should stop doing damage when the target is immune.


    Warden


    Warden is not that bad but way too slow in our parties in 12-People Inis. I think it can stay that way though as they are strong in not too fast parties and 6-People Inis except necro.


    Champion


    As a champion I can't keep up either overall in our 12-People Inis he's not bad but it's complicated and I have to work hard to get any damage at all. The best choice for champion is [CH/WRD] and [CH/R] which get weaker the faster the run is. [CH/P] could still be good, but it definitely has a singletarget problem with damage.


    Buffs from Warlock


    I would like to address another weak point.

    As a melee fighter you get very little support from the WL in trash if he is not well trained. Only rarely a surge, soul seal, SA and wisper buff (normal trash no pulls) because the support is mostly given at the range dps. Maybe you should rethink the range of buffs.


    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    I would like it if rogues do more damage when they play properly with the katana than with 2 daggers (Offhand Murk)


    "nerf Rogues offhand damage (Offhand Mastery) from 48,5% to 40%"-Blackkid

    would be a good solution.


    [W/S] and [W/B] are good as they are I would say.


    Unfortunately, the other Physical Dps warriors are not really playable in our parties.

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    No Guts No Glory No Legend No Story.

    Edited 4 times, last by Idhril ().

    Love 1 Like 2

    I disagree with the opinion that a properly used katana should deal more damage—because you force players to play with it, and if that happens, daggers will be useless. For me, the solution is not a nerf because, as you write, it is really weak, but rather setting up two classes with a buff for the katana. There is already a skin outflow—I have not seen anyone wanting to exchange, for example, magical equipment, and such behavior will only exacerbate the problem.

    Via skill definition, there are Rogues who will always excel with WB Offhand. Rogue/Champ, Rogue/Mage, Rogue/Warrior, Rogue/Warlock. These are 4 classes. So his statement is only interesting for:

    Rogue/Warden, Rogue/Bard, Rogue/Scout and Rogue/Priest.


    For those I personally agree Katana should be better if properly played. Would you agree with that, as well?