The problem with mixing roles with gear types

    Hello there,


    I just want to state my objective opinion on the current process of the game's evolution. Yes, I'm talking about evolution, because the big thing that was created here (which i really appreciate) is a huge balancing process that I have never seen before. With most patches the game evolved (and still is) into something even greater, but also there are some points I would like to highlight and to talk and discuss (hopefully constructive) about.


    I already mentioned this in a post on the balancing thread, but I found this topic too much important, not to create a whole thing out of it. I don't want to complain about anything, but show you my thoughts about a problem that could matter a lot in the future if we don't watch out.


    At this point a great thanks to the Team for all the effort they took on their shoulders. You show us how to publish the game on the right way!


    The Problem: Mixing of Roles and Gear Types

    Fortunately this isn't really a thing so far, but I see some changes go in this direction. But let me first state what I really mean with that problem.


    We have as many class combinations as no server ever had before, which is great. We finally got all the classes we waited for such a long time. Personally for me, I got the Knight/Champion which contains all the utility, support and defensive sustain that I need as a tank. I'm not a fan of selfish tanks since I played this role in different games in the past which always have been some sort of supporting role. Doesn't mean, we have to do it the same way on CoA, but this one is still an MMORPG, don't get me wrong. We still have the default (old) role allocation of tank, dps, heal and support.


    Since support is not related to any gear, because players can play many different support classes with different gear, which is totally fine imo, support in general should be available for everyone. Players without a decent gear aren't able to get the best out of their chars, that's a fact. So these ppl should be useful in instances even without good equipment imho.

    We got the new Champ/Druid which is a really helpful full support (deals like no dps, but can offtank and supp ofc) for chain or lether users (which also works fine with cloth afaik). We also got the default warlock for cloth users (both magical and heal), we got Rogue/Champ for lether users and of course Warrior/Priest that can be played with literally everything except plate. But plate should be related to tanks.


    The other roles like DPS, Tank and Heal should always be related to gear types. These are plate for tanks, heal-cloth for healers and the rest for dps classes. The point is, as a plate user you got many different styles to play. You can either go for a warden with a pet, for a champion or classic knight. Even warrior is possible, but imo not viable for endgame yet.


    The huge fear I have

    The point of this complain/mind map/idea is, that I see a huge threat in the future if this comes to terms. If you are able to play any role with like any gear, everone would just build one single gear. Also this game always had (and still has) a selfish-optimized gameplay. Most players play the class that is the best in its specific function.

    We had the expression "fashion class" for these classes, that were played by like 70-80% of the players (such as K/M, R/M and others in the very past). And however it will turn out, there will always be a class better like all the others, even if it's just a few percent points or a specific utility function that makes it better than most others. Tanks that are used to Knight/Rogue should know what I mean.


    Me as an endgame player (at least I would call myself as one) I always want to grant the raid the best utility and be as much useful as I can be. As a tank I play the class with most utility on different situations that matches most of our guild requirements, as a dps I always want to play the class that deals the most damage since that is the core of any damage-dealer: dealing damage, as much as you can. Personally I don't care what class I play, as long as I can get the (for myself) most and best and highest values from it.


    So my big fear is that there will be one or two single classes that can do like everything or can at least be used for most roles on the most effective and efficient way. We all know from the game's past, that we always ended up at this mentioned point. No matter how good the balancing ever was, we all know, there is always a meta existing. We just need to try to make more classes more attractive to play aside of the fashion ones. But anyways, if we mix up classes and gears, the common fashion classes will become even more relevant and less classes will be attractive to be played.


    Imagine there was a Warlock/Druid that can heal with full intelligence gear. Imagine there was a Warlock/Champion that could tank in intelligence gear. Imagine there were some warlock classes that deal good dps and others who support very well... oh, realize: there are already two of those factors fulfilled.


    Same relates to Champion: We already got the possibility to tank, deal damage and support with even chain armor on this class. About the healing power we can discuss - maybe 2 champ healers aren't enough for many situations, but imagine the following scenario:


    (Consider I'm not talking about playing with full golden highly-tiered gear, because with that you could even tank as a scout or rogue (as we've alredy seen). I am talking about medium content gear from Gorge and maybe some red rofl stuff!)


    At the moment, you can build an entire raid with chain wearing champions that can fit all roles pretty well. Let's take a champ/knight as a main tank, 3-4 champ/druids for heal, utility and support, the rest any champion class that is currently the best overall damage-dealer of this main class. You should be able to run all the current content without any issues and maybe at least as effective as any other endcontent raid.

    No, I didn't test this, but we got many champs in our guild (even with lesser gear) and I saw the potential of this class with my own eyes, so I assume it's possible though.


    How can we avoid this?

    I think, we need to step back a little and ask ourselves a question: Do we really want to cross the borders and limits, the core game and other mmo's are telling us? Personally I saw games crossing these borders and they failed on many points. Those who didn't, already had a core of sandbox game type, that made it possible not to limit on any structure. But we do have structure, in roles and gears. I would appreciate if we can keep this. I say: Let's bring new ideas and mechanics into the game by keeping the old working core functionality.


    Thanks for your patience. <3


    PS: I didn't test the druid/warlock with heal gear yet, so I didn't mention this.

    I see the point you are making and partially agree.

    I didnt think of your example of a full champion raid running rofl before, but it certainly is possible, I would also dare to say 2 ch/d are enough for that instance, for gorge you propably would need one or two more though... (:rolleyes:) .... ^^

    I love your example, it describes the issue pretty well.


    I have three things I want to point out to add my perspective.


    Firstly:

    I do not think having players with lower gear that cant "get the best out of their chars" in a raid is an issue and that there need to be more classes that can be played to their full potential without proper gear. There should be a certain threshhold players have to reach to be able to run endcontent and for players to be an exception for that "rule" we have the right amount of combos that can be viable without strong gear (for example wl/m, ch/d - as you mentioned).


    Secondly:

    Balancing is an ongoing process.

    Although I hope that the current balancing process with its massive changes and reorientation or even complete redesign of certain skills and classes will come to an end shortly after the new warlock eliteskills are released, I also hope that there will still be a minimal balancing kept up afterwards, to do some fine tuning of classes where values of skills are only marginally changed (like only a very few %dmg on a skill, a few seconds of runtime of buffs and cooldowns) to adress future balancing issues that will come up with new content and/or newly established meta-gameplays.

    This should prevent "fashion classes" to emerge again as they did in the past (best examples for Arcadia would be ch/r during gorge times or s/wd before that) and lead players to varify the classes they play based on whats the most fun for them and not only on what is strongest.

    Additionally, in my opinion, classes that are kinds of jacks of all trades (being able to do many different things with the same combination or (in this case) gear) should NOT be the strongest in each of those trades, so that when push comes to shove you would have to rely on different classes that actually specialize in their trades.


    Thirdly:

    It is all about the content.

    If endcontent is as easy as rofl currently is, a raid is not dependent on support and coordination at all.

    From my point of few having more support in our raid does more harm than help at the moment, because this leads to mobs and bosses dying even faster than they already do or heals having even less to heal than they already do, depending on what kind of support (offensive or defensive) you provide. And this leads to players having even less fun than they already do. Maybe this goes back to us having quite strong gears, maybe not, but at this point I think implementing this ultimate stuff was a huge mistake, but thats another topic on its own.


    Especially after the many, many changes that now allow to buff your entire raid with certain skills, a raid consisting of different classes with different subclasses that support each other and are not all focused on dealing the most dmg themselves alone, will be able to overall deal tons of dmg more than a raid that consists of only (for example) ch/wl or r/wl as dps.

    I guess I let you in on a very well kept secret just now (haha:D).

    So once we have proper endcontent that requires more than just 6 players goofing around and where players actually have to work together to be able to kill mobs and bosses, by making decisions on how they approach certain things (in this case on "how to get the most dmg out of our raid") we will be forced to play different classes to have the best outcome with the ressources (players+gear+classes) we have.

    And by now there are more than enough combos that support each other in different ways, so that noone would have to play just one single combo over and over again.


    To put this concrete using your champions-raid example:

    - If tanks were hit hard enough so that they have to rely on certain skills only certain tank-combinations provide, we wouldnt be able to run with a champion/any tank in dps gear.

    - If bosses/trashmobs had actually threatening mechanics or were dangerous enough so that we would either have to kill them as fast as possible or chain-cc them or frequently interrupt them, six ch/wl in a raid certainly would not do the best job.

    ...well, this isnt be best example as champions have compareably quite strong cc, but imagine you would not be able to go all-in on melee. I hope you get my point anyway.

    - If the raid would get hit by more dangerous (AoE) dmg than the occasional and very well predictable 100-range AoE around some mobs, where we would have to rely on certain dmg-reducing/-negating skills only certain class combinations provide or rely on certain heal patterns only certain healing combinations can provide instead of just spamming everyone with tons (AoE-)HoTs, 2-4 ch/d in a raid would not be the best choice to assure everyones survival.


    To have a healthy pool of class variantions, there should be situations that can be approached in multiple different ways, but there shouldnt be different situations that can all be approached in the same way.



    I guess Zyrex' intention was not to start a discussion on this topic but rather state his point of view as feedback for the PlayerNet-team, at least that is what I took from his post and that is all I wanted to do as well.&)

    And I hope this wasnt just another of my rants about rofl, but could actually help to prevent a "full-champions-raid" in the future, so that all the effort put into class balancing was not in vain.:saint:

    Personally I would like to see this game focus more on coordination and playing together in a raid, instead of just caring about the scrutinizer to see who can deal the most dmg with which class. Because for what else should all those raid-buffs have been given to us...? :/


    Cheers!:thumbup:

    Think! It's not illegal yet.

    I'm just here for the drama.

    Like 3

    Thanks for the huge reply melodic ! Appreciate that very much :)

    Quote from melodic

    I do not think having players with lower gear that cant "get the best out of their chars" in a raid is an issue and that there need to be more classes that can be played to their full potential without proper gear.

    Yes indeed, there are some. For example returning players who want to enter endcontent again asap. I was one of these when I rejoined the party a few months ago.

    But yes, it's not a current issue since we got enough possibilities to even support in any gear type, so this is entirely fine atm.

    Quote from melodic

    Additionally, in my opinion, classes that are kinds of jacks of all trades (being able to do many different things with the same combination or (in this case) gear) should NOT be the strongest in each of those trades, so that when push comes to shove you would have to rely on different classes that actually specialize in their trades.

    Agree on that. I would even say that no class should be able to be able to do these different things with same combo and/or gear.

    Quote from melodic

    - If bosses/trashmobs had actually threatening mechanics or were dangerous enough so that we would either have to kill them as fast as possible or chain-cc them or frequently interrupt them, six ch/wl in a raid certainly would not do the best job.

    Yes, I remember that was an issue for my former guild in inferno release times. Even our plate tank got hit very hard and our champs were only able to tank this with knight secondary without any elite skills. Would appreciate watching this (more or less) in the current endgame.

    Quote from melodic

    I guess Zyrex' intention was not to start a discussion on this topic but rather state his point of view as feedback for the PlayerNet-team, at least that is what I took from his post and that is all I wanted to do as well.

    Well, I would say, a little of both. We can discuss things ofc if there is something to be discussed, but I'm also interested in the opinions of others. ;)

    Quote from Zyrex

    (Consider I'm not talking about playing with full golden highly-tiered gear, because with that you could even tank as a scout or rogue (as we've alredy seen). I am talking about medium content gear from Gorge and maybe some red rofl stuff!)

    I want to see people tanking as scout or rogue in dps gear :O ;)

    Don't forget that the person worn 6+ tank items and the raid had a lot of dmg-reduce buffs/skills permanently up / used them wisely :D

    Quote from xLutinex

    I want to see people tanking as scout or rogue in dps gear :O ;)

    Don't forget that the person worn 6+ tank items and the raid had a lot of dmg-reduce buffs/skills permanently up / used them wisely :D

    Oh, I didn't mean that the person (who would definitively be completely insane even to try this ;)) did it in full dps gear, but I doubt it would be possible without "full golden highly-tiered" stuff though. :P ...Champ you would have to be... *sigh*

    This issue will also always benefit magic damage/cloth wearing classes. As EVERY class can always wear cloth. If a new player asks "what class should I start with guys?", the answer is always "magic damage/cloth". Want to play Scout? Cloth s/wl...knight k/m dps cloth, and so on. And this is also seen in the stat prices where you can see "wtt 1 int/int for 2 str/str".


    Also, where are the physical damage mages and druids? Whenever a class gets elite skills that differ from the "standard" style of said class, its almost always taking a physical class and turning it to magic. The only class i can think of that isnt like that is p/w (recently nerfed btw)


    Just my 2 cents good day :)

    Quote from dexhunterz

    This issue will also always benefit magic damage/cloth wearing classes. As EVERY class can always wear cloth. If a new player asks "what class should I start with guys?", the answer is always "magic damage/cloth". Want to play Scout? Cloth s/wl...knight k/m dps cloth, and so on. And this is also seen in the stat prices where you can see "wtt 1 int/int for 2 str/str".

    Hi there,


    yes, every class is generally able to wear cloth, but it makes only sense on magical classes ofc ;) And we have muuuuch more physical classes than magical ones, so I think turning some physical ones (who never have been physical before, such as scout/warlock) is a good way to go and to compensate the huge gap of playable classes.


    But ofc as a cloth dps gear wearing player you can play primary warlock, primary mage, S/Wl, K/M, W/M.


    As a physical player, you can firstly decide to wear lether or chain. Lether can be primary scout or rogue, also some warriors can make sense and you could always go for champ as an (off)tank for lower instances. With chain you are privileged to play either warden, warrior or champion and here we go again, same topic as mentioned about champ. ;) I think, the only players who mighe be able to complain about the balancing are the lether wearing guys (if they didn't already switched to chain or cloth), because they lost the rogue/warden, didn't get the scout/warlock and need a new weapon for scout/champ.


    I would never tell a new player to start as a mage since mages are more or less the most expensive class out there (always have been afaik). I always recommend to go for chain gear, because you can do like everything with it.


    Physical druid is already existing afaik as druid/warrior, but isn't that good I guess... never tested this or saw anyone playing it. Well P/W was quite too strong with his fairy which was much easier to play than any Warmage or K/M in the past.

    Quote from Zyrex

    lost the rogue/warden

    I would not say that Leather Classes lost Rogue/warden , playing it with a Leather Set should be still the superior option in comparison to chain when u look at damage


    Greetings

    If you identify a UFO as a UFO , then it becomes an FO. Unless it has landed , then it is simply an -> O

    Like 4