Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

    Quote from Madox

    Sustained dmg is the main reason of this class (and many mages) if you nerf that then you might need to push its burst and balance would need to start again.

    You really think, the balance is over like it is right now? If so you are completly lost. Or didnt played much at all.
    For sure its not only mdps who is still OP. If we take a look into Chain of Arcadia we still see, Champ/Wl still overperforming or a Wr/Rouge or a Wr/Druid... i can continue so long. But also many mdps classes disgusting. Sure you need try compare in same runs with same supp etc. Which is actually pretty hard. But still it is.
    And we got so long now no balance patches, which makes me kinda sad tbh.(i dont count last one, cuz it was more or less bugfix) Couse, like Merkur said. So less Leather Dps who perfome atleast well or even with some broken, chain or mage classes. (actually just r/ch, when he play nearly perfect)

    For my opinion her is still much work needed to make it fair for each "dps" class. And then we didnt started to talk about tank classes or heal... x)


    Greetings

    Côsmô

    I say they don't do balance because they are busy and you tell me I'm lost :D

    I know classes aren't totally balanced (that is impossible to achieve btw, remember that). I didn't use a single word saying balance is over because classes are balanced. It is over because they have no time.

    As I said many times, new ini will require a whole new balance so just ask for it when ini is out and we start farming it.

    Regarding healer:


    If you see classes like Druid/Priest and Priest/Druid with their raid heal over time effects and many other damage mitigation skills, I suggest to change "Camelia Flower" of druid/scout to have an uptime of 15-20 seconds and maybe a range of 100, because right now everything the Druid/Scout have is better on Druid/Priest and Druid/Priest have way more ability :)


    Greetings

    I'm not sure about the balancing these days. There are some classes that are really powerful and others that are quite...bad. I think, I gave up comparing our (different) classes in our runs, since pdps always complain about mdps and vice versa ^^ So I keep praying for no kill-nerfs and playing my favorite magical classes :)


    Regarding magical dps classes, I'm not sure what to think about balancing. Warlock is still very strong, but mage is kinda equal. S/M is better than any warlock or mage, but I have no clue about ranking the specific classes by dps. If a new mdps player asks me what to play, I always recommend Warlock/Warden, bcz it's the easiest way to deal tons of damage, but need specific "higher" ISS, for everyone else I recommend Scout/Mage, bcz it's the allrounder. Myself I keep playing the most anti-meta classes, bcz they are fun to play and got a lot of utility. :)


    And...

    Quote from Merkur

    I am saying to add option for leather gear. Maybe create classes like s/m? For two eq (leather+cloth).

    I agree. This could be a suitable reason to rework Priest/Scout Dps again and make it another (more balanced) Scout/Mage? As a mdps the class sucks, as a mdps/supp it's also useless (even in 6 player content we got a priest heal), so why not making it a hybrid class too? And a ranged leather class that can rez and such would be awesome, wouldn't it? &)

    Heyho,


    I just read the last posts and want to add my opinion to that:


    Quote from Merkur

    2) Magical s/m is much stronger than physical, moreover, it is generally too strong, since it only had 1-2 patches, I will not believe anyone that after such a short time it is well balanced

    In my opinion that is not true. Indeed he is strong but the physical one is as strong as the magical one and in general VERY strong.

    1-2 patches...?!

    Note: the second dps number is the MAGICAL one


    10.4.1.2003

    "Scout/Mage

    • Reduced Incineration damage to 160%/375% from 160%/500%.
    • Reduced The Inferno damage to 250%/1300% from 400%/1733%.
    • Reduced Joint Blow damage to 750%/1687% from 750%/2531%.
    • Reduced Flame Arrows damage to 478%/1434% from 478%/1593%."

    10.4.1.2003-2

    "Scout/Mage

    • Changed Incineration to have 8% damage decrement for each extra target, increased its damage to 160%/400% from 160%/375%.
    • Reduced Inevitable Ignition fire damage gain to 12% from 20%."

    10.4.1.2003-3

    "Scout/Mage

    • Reduced Excessive Necessity attack gain to 10% from 15%."

    10.4.1.2004

    "Scout/Mage

    • Reduced The Inferno damage to 250%/1170% from 250%/1300%.
    • Reduced Flame Arrows damage to 478%/1170% from 478%/1434%."


    Quote from Merkur

    And I must admit that it amazed me. As far as I understand that chain eq has many options (basically 3 classes). I totally don't understand why mages with 2 base classes (same as on leather eq) have 9 more options than me.

    I support this idea. Only leather classes didn't got any other special classes with a different main class then scout or rogue.

    Quote from Madox

    All your comments today are to hate mages... :|

    Yeah not hate... but it's not new that Merkur always bashes against mages in nearly every post. It's kind of obvious. But some other people do that too...


    Quote from Cosmo

    For sure its not only mdps who is still OP. If we take a look into Chain of Arcadia we still see, Champ/Wl still overperforming or a Wr/Rouge or a Wr/Druid... i can continue so long. But also many mdps classes disgusting. Sure you need try compare in same runs with same supp etc. Which is actually pretty hard. But still it is.
    And we got so long now no balance patches, which makes me kinda sad tbh.(i dont count last one, cuz it was more or less bugfix) Couse, like Merkur said. So less Leather Dps who perfome atleast well or even with some broken, chain or mage classes. (actually just r/ch, when he play nearly perfect)

    I don't really understand why every leather player complains about that. Of course (in my case) i can say some magical classes are pretty strong. But leather has some very strong classes too and there is no point in bashing other classes while some of the leather ones are as strong too. Scout/warden, scout/druid, scout/mage, rogue/warden, rogue/champion for example are top tier too.


    Greetings

    Sorry but no. You should test yourself and don't compare with other different skilled players.

    My leather gear: T13/T14, T13 runes with T15 xbow does way less damage than scout/mage with my mage gear (T12, T10-t11 runes, T15 weapon). With way less I mean something like that my mdps is doing between 20-30% more damage. That are my test results weeks ago after the last changes of the class.

    (sustain of magical one is clearly higher because Joint Blow of magical one does way more damage than from physical one, which is the strongest skill. Also in burst Joint Blow of magical one 30kk+ and from physical one maybe 20kk-25kk (very optimisitc 25kk))


    Edit:

    Quote from Persil

    I don't really understand why every leather player complains about that. Of course (in my case) i can say some magical classes are pretty strong. But leather has some very strong classes too and there is no point in bashing other classes while some of the leather ones are as strong too. Scout/warden, scout/druid, scout/mage, rogue/warden, rogue/champion for example are top tier too.


    Sorry but Scout/Druid for example isn't strong anymore xD. And I can outdps (in rofl) all of my scout/warden, scout/mage, rogue/warden and rogue/champ with a mdps class with my mdps gear. Whether I am totally noob with my leather classes or kinda some kind of super hero in mage gear. And get in mind that my main dps weapons from leather are 2-3 tiers higher than from mdps gear


    Greetings

    S/M(mdd) is one of the strongest classes i have ever played.

    It is very easy to play, requires virtually no skill and is boring af.


    That aside it is way stronger than the Pdd Scouts, which is very funny. xD

    Leather has exactly one class that is as strong as the others. The other classes are all memes. I am not saying that classes should be nerfed, but maybe it would be fair to at least buff a couple leather classes, so these players have a few more options like us other DD players.


    Another thing: Warlock is very useless in rofl, so maybe help that class out a bit when it comes to offburst trash phases or something.


    Edit1: I also really really disliked the changes made to the mage level 98 ISS "The Wise". Yes it is a lot stronger now than before obviously, but before the change it used to be skill that needed to be timed correctly on order to get the most use out of it. I would rather have a buff that plays a bit into the skill expression of the player rather than just the buff and burst style it is now.


    ~kind regards

    Heyho,


    I have seen different information about this tbh. But i don't think our opinions will match there.

    But i don't really think that some other leather classes really need a Buff (Some of them are top dps). A few yes of course but not every class. Tbh i can't really believe that the opinions are SO different. But i guess we'll see how the balancing team will decide on that. Atm i still have this opinion i mentioned above.

    I do not say that the s/m isn't strong atm. :)


    Offtopic: i don't think that this balancing pause was that bad. It was nice to see the same classes perform over a longer time period and not a changing meta like every 1-2 weeks


    Greetings

    Would be nice if you shared some experiences then.


    Mine are the following: On mage i get beaten by some chain dps classes (W/R and Ch/Wl). These classes however are either getting beaten by, or are at even with S/M(Mdd).


    I mean this is just from random pug groups, so the results may vary because of the skill lvl and the supports.

    But in my experiences these results are pretty consistent.


    As Mdd you can play S/M, S/Wl, Wd/D and 2 or 3 mage classes and be top dps.


    My problem is, that the best mdd classes are fucking boring. And the problem of the leather players is, that there are very few classes that can compete.

    100 percent of your opinion // leather classes have been trimmed


    buff pdd scout =)

    Today we were with the guild in the instance. I was a physical S/M t13 set + t15 crossbow, for 2 S/M t12 magic sets + t13 crossbow.

    Having better gear, my skills were weaker by 10% -25% ...

    Where is a fair balance of classes, as the only magic/physical combination is strongly in favor for the magic classes?

    u make new magical combination like S/M WRL/WRD or D/(i dont remember second class)

    i wanna same situation with cloth class

    M/S who can be range physical DPS with leather gear

    D/R physical mele DPS with also leather gear



    warrior have elite skill and he can use plate

    rogue have elite skill and he can use chain

    u change scout and he is better with cloth than leather

    give me now cloth class who can use leather gear



    idk why u hate leather gear :( its very nice gear :) who dont like pif paf trututu???

    The knight mage is atm not a good dps in rofl because he has to low mat and low weaponlevel.

    The knight/mage need a higher weaponlevel for 2 hand sword. its the only dps with weaponlevel 142 for his mainweapon, pls patch it to 280 like the other dps for dont miss 10%. Give 20% mat pls and 30% attackspeed or you cant attack anything in rofl. everything is dead before you can hit. Add 30% attackspeed and if its to overpowered delete a little bit weapondmg and give attackspeed instead of that should be balanced. summarized add weaponlvl 280, +20% mat, +30% attackspeed, delete -20% light damage. You can delete the light damage by the skill light energyweapon its 20% more and add the 20% mat and 30% attackspeed. Please check my idea at the testserver. i think the class will be balanced after that in rofl. Maybe try 20% attackspeed instead of 30% if 30% is to overpowered. Thanks for reading my idea. i played a lot this class and tried things in rofl and at Balton. i think my ideas can work for a good balance.

    Heyho,


    Quote from johnkopytko

    idk why u hate leather gear :( its very nice gear :) who dont like pif paf trututu???

    Don't get me wrong here - no one here hated leather gear in their post. ^^

    My point was that something like

    Quote from Luciaa

    buff pdd scout =)

    is not necessary for some combinations. The leather classes in general are far from weak. But some of them can ofc need a Buff. Not every combination is as viable as others. :)


    Btw:

    Quote from Ramer

    Today we were with the guild in the instance. I was a physical S/M t13 set + t15 crossbow, for 2 S/M t12 magic sets + t13 crossbow.

    Having better gear, my skills were weaker by 10% -25% ...

    Where is a fair balance of classes, as the only magic/physical combination is strongly in favor for the magic classes?

    The crossbow of the magical dd is not that important. It's more about the main hand (2h Staff). But i made different observations about the numbers. :)


    And in my opinion the right way would be to nerf the magical s/m a bit instead of buffing every scout (scoutmeta again).


    But like in my previous post the balancing team will decide what will happen at the end of the day ^^ we'll see.


    Greetings

    Glad to see new hoto stats have been added, cloth and chain will get a lot from it, unfortunately the rogues will be a lot in the back. Was it provided by the developers? Are you planning to make some rogue patt a bit? Maybe some ISS? Or maybe (here is a big request from me) with a new ini you will change the rogue in such a way that it is based only on dex? I don't know which solution is better, but I think something needs to be done here.


    However, if the rogue is really going to be rebuilt, please be fair to the players and let us know in advance.


    By the way, I would like to ask you again, are you planning to allow the rogues to play in additional classes and will r/k be able to do a good dmg?

    I got an idea to dont make ppl mad if you balancing classes. Only buff classes dont nerf classes. you nerfed a lot and we got enough nerfes. so only buff classes till they do SIMILAR dmg like the best classes atm (r/ch). dont boost them more then r/ch. try to balance them to the same aoe and burstlevel. people wont loose dias cause they need to build new gear if you only boost a little bit and we can play every classcombination all the time. that should be great. People only will be happy and wont get mad cause there is no reason to be mad.

    Quote from orbit

    I got an idea to dont make ppl mad if you balancing classes. Only buff classes dont nerf classes. you nerfed a lot and we got enough nerfes. so only buff classes till they do similar dmg like the best classes atm. thats all ppl only will get happy and not mad. &)

    That is bad idea, if we got too strong class, we shouldn't boost all classes, we should nerf one class who is too strong. Because if we will only boost all then our power will raise, raise and raise.

    Quote from Merkur
    Quote from orbit

    I got an idea to dont make ppl mad if you balancing classes. Only buff classes dont nerf classes. you nerfed a lot and we got enough nerfes. so only buff classes till they do similar dmg like the best classes atm. thats all ppl only will get happy and not mad. &)

    That is bad idea, if we got too strong class, we shouldn't boost all classes, we should nerf one class who is too strong. Because if we will only boost all then our power will raise, raise and raise.

    we already have the possibility to only play the strongest classes, what is the difference if there are more classes available ? the word balancing said exactly what i discribe not what you discribe.

    It's a difference "play strongest classes" vs "play strongest class". Idea where we will boost only it's bad because if we will boost one combination too hard, then we should boost rest of class, then we will have x% to create another too strong class. It's much easier try nerf one class than boost all classes. If we will boost sth too hard, then try boost another classes to the same lvl we will create new op class, then we will boost rest of class, will get next op class, then boost rest of classes, will get new op class..... ... ....

    That is the worst idea for balance, we have been dealing with this idea for some time. -1 from me.

    The key to balance is weakening too strong combinations, boosting too weak classes, and nerfing them if you boost them too much. Additionally, in my opinion, the most frustrating thing is that once the op classes are there it allows them to be the strongest for too long, the nerfs should be coming much, much faster.

    Quote from Merkur

    It's a difference "play strongest classes" vs "play strongest class". Idea where we will boost only it's bad because if we will boost one combination too hard, then we should boost rest of class, then we will have x% to create another too strong class. It's much easier try nerf one class than boost all classes. If we will boost sth too hard, then try boost another classes to the same lvl we will create new op class, then we will boost rest of class, will get next op class, then boost rest of classes, will get new op class..... ... ....

    That is the worst idea for balance, we have been dealing with this idea for some time. -1 from me.

    I still think its a good idea because everyone can already play only one of the strongest dps combinations in a group and ppl already do this its full of strongest dps classes like r/ch in randomgroups. What i mean is bring all the other classes as example on same aoe and burst level like r/ch. i never said anyone should boost a class to hard . i said balance it to the same dmg or similar dmg. why afraid that every classcombination will do a similar dmg ? i think playernet dont need nerf anything else. People lost a lot of dias because some classcombination arent available because of the nerfs. Why should nerf again and loose dias again ? if they do like i say you cant loose dias cause you can play the class what you want and you dont need to swap class again. if we do like you say it can happen and ppl get mad again. big - for you idea because of that too. A randomrun in rofl need 1-1,5 hours you need 15 core for 1 goldenpull its 15-20 hours for 1 goldenpull. thats ok. maybe you dont understand the logic or whart i mean i dont know. i think my idea is good.


    complement

    and what you talk about is not that my idea is bad its bad that they dont check enough the damage of classes after they boost or nerf it.

    Friend, through almost the entire balance, except for single episodes, everyone has always played the strongest class available. Due to the fact that the balance was often so crazy that if you did not play the strongest class, people with much worse eq on the strongest class would massacre you in dps.


    You said before that you have to boost classes, not nerf them. Now it turns out that you are presenting my old idea to bring all classes down to the level of one chosen one. R/ch is a good example here because he has a great single dmg and aoe dmg. I will surprise you, however, r/ch is not the strongest class in the game, I think that it is far from that and you have to nerf something here anyway.


    That people lose dias after nerfs. So, for example, they make a gun for scout, then there are nerfs and they lose dias because these nerfs are too far advanced. We have many classes that are either too strong or too weak. The fact that someone is not playing with the class in which they have invested diasy is due to the fact that this class has been nerfed too much and it is not profitable to play it OR it has bad gameplay and only the fact that it was op made people want to play it. I myself know my guild mates who hate the idea of blood arrow and they played on r/s because he was doing the slaughter on the battlefield.


    I do not know what the idea of randoms on the rofl and golden cores has to do with it. My guess is that the classes aren't very strong, so don't be afraid of too much team power. I will comment on it like this:

    The first rofl runes from my guild took 5-6 hours, today it's going to be done in 40 minutes. Secondly, the outgoing damage has already been lowered several times because too much power was added to the classes due to the balance.


    Here is just my opinion

    You are partly right that it is not entirely important what scheme is choose, they are better and worse. The biggest problem, however, is that these classes are not tested and observed. Nobody will tell me that it is very different, just look at how powerful classes appeared and how many seasons for each class have been. Perhaps it is a carelessness on the part of developers, perhaps it is a bit overwhelmed by their task, or maybe it is simply profitable for them. Just initiate some classes op season and give her a unique weapon, and then count the diases. I am not making accusations here, I am only commenting on what options I see.


    Anyway, there is nothing to discuss here because the developers will not move away from their idea of balancing.