Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

    Quote from Rakot_Hades
    Quote from Serenadae

    While I generally do like the idea of a 5 piece accessory set bonus, please refrain from implementing it. Atm taking the second ring and earring from the golden dexterity set outperforms 2x aoth for chain gear and some people (including myself) have already finished those items.


    If you consider this change, please give said players the chance to change them accordingly via support. Yes, we were told to reconsider decisions regarding our gear during class balancing, but I think it's fair to say that this statement doesn't apply to changes regarding items.

    That concern is fairly easy to address in my opinion if 5 item set bonus will be based on any 5 golden pieces - that way 3 dex and 2 str would give bonus just like 5 str would - so for melee accessories just have 5 items that can be picked from either dex or str sets - and extra bonus for 5 items could just have plain pa and crit, instead of str or dex - that way would be uniform and work for all including those who already made 2 dex and 3 str

    No it wouldnt. You miss, that the dex ring has dex on it and the str ring has str on it. That makes a difference at all and you cannot make a 5 piece bonus, that would be same for 3/2 users and 5 pieces users.

    Anyway like Serenadae said. Even the golden 2 dex pieces outperform the older str DN versions

    Quote from Rakot_Hades

    1) Since balancing is taking place, i wonder one extra addition that could be implemented while balancing is at works is addition of ISS on the golden gear, say top 4 pieces for chain/leather/cloth - would be really nice for a change to have a custom gear with custom set

    ISS on (Chamber of Elements) custom sets have more or less already been confirmed by Grox months ago and I support this very much, no idea how far along that idea has come in that time.

    I also oppose the other suggestion, due to already stated reasons.

    However for tanks for example there is absolutely no reason to use 5 ultimative pieces, mainly because the stamina stat on rings is lower than the str/dex/int stats on other rings, making the 2-pieces-DN-setbonus even stronger...I am wondering why this is the case and if this is intended....:/


    Cheers!

    Think! It's not illegal yet.

    I'm just here for the drama.

    Like 2

    From Sere: "Atm taking the second ring and earring from the golden dexterity set outperforms 2x aoth for chain gear"


    I would like to point out in case someone is deciding to go that route that in my opinion it is not a clear cut conclusion, you gain in prcit + slight increase in phys crit damage (which is not absolute extra but relative hence lower than what you may think) but lose in pa - so its a gain/loss and i think comes down to preference, both work fine however. I trust raw pa over crit luck for example, but I know many prefer crit, which is fine and gives variety - as I told to Sere earlier we will have to agree to disagree on that :)


    But my original point still stands - all mages, all healers, all tanks are 100% better off with using 2 aoth + 3 gold; the str is I agree can be argued to be marginally better or marginally worse depending on your preference (hence i posted almost in the original post) and so unless you really really want to have all golden, there is really no real need to make all 5 golden and 3 gold + 2 old aoth is best or almost as best.


    If devs think this is fine and intended to have majority of classes to only needing to make 3/5 gold accessories, then its ok, i have no problem with that, i only mentioned it to ensure the devs are aware of the situation. My thought was it makes more sense to have a reason for ppl to upgrade more - I know few ppl who dont plan to make other 2 golden pieces of accessories due to no gain or even small loss.


    Rakot



    Quote from Rakot_Hades


    But my original point still stands - all mages, all healers, all tanks are 100% better off with using 2 aoth + 3 gold;


    I am not ingame right now and cannot say how it is for mages, but for healers you are wrong. don't tell you are 100% better with using 2 DN + 3 gold. For healers you have 4 gold + 1 gorge earring. I guess for mages it is kinda same, but cannot check right now.


    And why do you want such a change right now? Many players were dissappointed with their weapons after the class balancing has launched. Before, they had the best weapons for their classes, after the balancing launch it isnt anymore the "best" probably for their class. I know several players which are dissappointed. Why do you want to have such thing again? After a lot of players still have finished their gear?

    To above: - i repeat:


    "My thought was it makes more sense to have a reason for ppl to upgrade more - I know few ppl who dont plan to make other 2 golden pieces of accessories due to no gain or even small loss." Hope my point is clear


    I could care less about your disappointment with the weapon; and I am positive majority of ppl did not finish all 5 sets and even if you did, there is a lot of time till next content to make 2 new gold accessories and sell/trade other to other players


    Also, even if you are correct with healer, its still 4 not 5, so point of not needing 5 gold still stands

    Quote from Rakot_Hades

    I could care less about your disappointment with the weapon; and I am positive majority of ppl did not finish all 5 sets and even if you did, there is a lot of time till next content to make 2 new gold accessories and sell/trade other to other players

    Having to redo any items in your gear to adress any changes made to them is connected to losses for the player, you can not expect to be able to sell the "old" pieces for exactly their cost.

    Making any changes to those items now and forcing active players to redo their gear to keep it optimal kind of punishes them compared to those who did not invest as much time into the game up to now.

    So all items should be final in their state when implemented/acquirable in the game, except there is a grave need for balancing purposes. Otherwise I see no reason why any changes should be made to items and I dont see such reason in this case.

    Every player should be thankful to be able to grind inis for 2 items less to have the optimal gear, the only point I see and as you pointed out yourself, is wanting full golden/ultimate gear for aesthetics, but then you have to deal with suboptimal performant gear.

    Simple choice imo.


    So why make this even a topic here. If devs were aware of this, noone is at any disadvantage. If devs were not aware of this and chose to do nothing about it, noone is at any disadvantage. If they decide to change items now, just because not everyone is going to get 5 ultimate accessory pieces, many players (those who already finished gear and those who now will have to grind longer to complete their gear) will be at a disadvantage.



    Additionally here is another rather fun fact, not really connected to the previous topic, but since you mentioned:

    Quote from Rakot_Hades

    ...there is a lot of time till next content to make 2 new gold accessories...

    At multiple times and occasions the publisher and the dev team pointed out, that the ultimate gear should not be considered the "usual" gear for this content, but something extra rewarding for the very active players and that not everyone is supposed to be aiming to complete this ultimate gear, but "only" the red one.

    Why this indeed was a very unhealthy approach I also already pointed out at multiple occasions a long time ago.
    Now my point being is:

    As the most active players are done by now with their ultimate gear and more and more less active players are following in completing it, I am wondering if we are soon to expect new content with new and even stronger sets of gear.


    Otherwise, if the majority of players running rofl completes this gear, the whole original idea behind the ultimate gear would somehow miss its purpose, wouldnt it?! :/;)


    I really am looking forward to a publishers statement concerning this issue.&)


    Cheers!

    Think! It's not illegal yet.

    I'm just here for the drama.

    Like 3

    You get entangled in contradictions just because you want something different for yourself. In comparison, I think more generally. I don't know why you just mentioned my weapon. I told you that I know several people.

    You say you are sure that the majority would like to see a change. But I don't see any evidence of that. On the contrary, I know from experience that even more players would quit.

    Changes in this way, that players needs to redo their gear after the items are released, are not sustainable.


    Like Melodic said. It is your choice. Best gear or aesthetics


    Kind regards

    I disagree on "best gear or aesthetics". There is one example for this, cape. Lot of people had their set done when they decided to change cape and add it to pants set because lower set was that, a waste and pure aesthetic. We complained and they saw we were right. They did it in a way that the change was good and didn't hurt anyone.


    Golden is best exclusive items, expensive and hard to get. That imho shouldn't be aesthetics, especially not in this game where skins are ultra cheap in item shop and endgame gear improving is best I've ever seen. This change would cost me money because I already redid old dn set but if is a change for the better, I don't mind.


    I agree on 5 golden accessories set.

    Another option would be 3+2 but a new one. If is true that new world boss is coming with talisman and shield, might be the right place to add new ring+earring set so everyone have something they need and boss don't become obsolete on the first day since is easy to get the stats on RoFL already.


    Also, I think the idea of custom ISS is nice.


    Regards, Madoxx.

    correct me if I am wrong, but the lower set problem was totally different.

    The lower set was always a 4 pieces set, but you would have lost the 2 piece set bonus of gorge with the cape. The ppl which has made the lower set before the 2 piece gorge bonus was added to the golden lower set, didn't need to redo their gear, because their was no other choice.


    And again. I don't know why you come now with such ideas, months and months after the release of the items. That does not make any sense, unless you want to annoy people, which already finished their gear and need to redo. (And just for your information. I don't need to redo, because I am not a chain/cloth/plate gear player)

    Quote from Serenadae

    While I generally do like the idea of a 5 piece accessory set bonus, please refrain from implementing it. Atm taking the second ring and earring from the golden dexterity set outperforms 2x aoth for chain gear and some people (including myself) have already finished those items.


    If you consider this change, please give said players the chance to change them accordingly via support. Yes, we were told to reconsider decisions regarding our gear during class balancing, but I think it's fair to say that this statement doesn't apply to changes regarding items.

    If i do the math, i cannot see the golden 2 piece dex is outperforming 2 piece aoth str:

    Champ still get 1 Str (2 Patt), 1 Dex (0 Patt) - am i correct?


    Golden Dex Ring (T12): 894 Dex (0 Patt), 894 pCrit

    Golden Dex Ear (T12): 5111 Patt, 894 pCrit

    2 Piece Bonus: 540 Dex (0 Patt), 420 pCrit, 2040 Patt

    Total: 2208 pCrit, 7151 Patt


    Aoth Str Ring (T12): 714 Str (1428 Patt), 714 pCrit

    Aoth Str Ear (T12): 4080 Patt, 714 pCrit

    2 Piece Bonus: 450 Str (900 Patt), 1700 Patt, 350 pCrit

    Total: 1778 pCrit, 8108 Patt


    Or do you prefer pCrit over pAtt?

    Or am I mistaken?!


    Greetings

    Cali, no your math is correct, only small comment is with golden dex set you also gain 2.6% more pcrit damage though again as i mentioned it does not mean you will get crit damage output increased by 2.6% more since its also based on other (numerous) extra % pcrit increases from other sets


    You can do identical math and get similar conclusion to magic damage dealers in that 2 aoth still as good or better than 2 extra gold accessories, hence my original post for devs to consider how to encourage ppl to still make all 5 golden accessories instead of 3 gold + 2 aoths - hence my idea of 5 golden accessories bonus


    Now, I am 100% sympathetic with someone like Sere who indeed already made his gear, my proposal is in no way aimed to annoy people contrary to what one posted was claiming, I am in fact have whole server in mind and I do think making all 5 gold accessories instead of just 3 will help server grow as more runs would be needed etc. As Mado mentioned, getting gold gear is hard and very time consuming or expensive, it should provide clear improvement in the char, which is not the case when we go from 3 gold accessories + 2 old aoth to 5 golden.


    Perhaps, this is an instance where devs may offer one time service to trade already made 2 extra gold for equivalent but str based instead of dex based, for example. I am convinced that there are not that many people who already made all 5, and VAST majority have not, so time investment for the exchange is not large considering the benefit of many people would then need to make 2 extra golden pieces. That being said, I understand that such exchange option is not something that was done before (as far as I am aware) and thus I dont know if it is possible - hence i mentioned that maybe just simple in game trade/sell and making a new is an option. I do agree however, that this would not be ideal and I myself most of the time trading/selling rarely returned on the investment, although in the case of a rare gold gear it is probably less of an issue since it would be highly valuable.


    Rakot

    P.S. forgot to mention - Mado's idea of adding 2 accessories to world boss - it would be equivalent I think, since it would come soon and then few ppl who already made all 5 would need to replace them anyway, so we back to that issue again; I do like the idea in general, however, as an alternative to 5 accessories bonus

    You miss the 2,9% more critical damage that the ultimate dex ring provides.

    Taking into account my current critical multiplier, this translates to one third, so roughly 1% more damage on all critical hits. My critrate in rofl differs between 65 - 76% (ch/wl), but for this calculation I'll take a supposed critrate of 50%. Hence 1% more critical damage dealt (don't confuse this with raw critical damage) would be a total of 0.5% more damage.

    You get 957 additional patk from the 2 piece Aoth setup (I'm going to use the numbers provided by you, forgive me my lazyness :D). Let's assume you can buff it up by 5 times (inaccurate yes, but the actual multiplier is less anyway). So you would have an additional round about 5k patk. My patk with damage food is 1,55kk, so this additional patk would be a damage increment of 0,32%. If I'd take Hot Stew the number would be even smaller (2,1kk patk - 6,5k (5k + 30%) -> 0,3%).

    Furthermore, I have only taken trashbuffed values of a player vs a boss without any debuffs into account. Once you reach or surpass enemy defense, the rules of decreasing growth apply and 1% more patk ceases to be 1% more damage dealt, further shifting the advantage towards the 2x dex setup.

    So in conclusion, you get slightly more overall damage out of it plus 430 crit. The only exception is ch/m because of the additional 100% crit damage that devalues the 2,9%.


    Offtopic:

    Bosses actually do have more crit resistance than you might think. Each bosslevel adds a certain amount of critical resistance to the base value. Atleast in my opinion, crit is always more valuable than a comparable amount of patk. Yeah I know, thats a topic for debate and I understand that some may prefer having hard stats instead of a higher random modifier :D.

    correct me if im wrong, but in overall 2.6% (for both t12 rings) crit damage won't give you even half of its actual value as damage output, it will give you;

    - 0.85% more overall damage if your average crit is 65%

    - 0.88% more overall damage if your average crit is 70%

    - 0.91% more overall damage if your average crit is 76%

    - 0.96% more overall damage if your average crit is 85% which is very hard to achieve


    and saying 1% attack gives you 1% damage output wouldn't be entirely correct because it has an exponential graph until you have enough attack then continues to increase logarithmic until you have 2x (not entirely sure about this, it might be 10x too) attack value equal to your targets defense (which is hard to achieve for rofl bosses without mage/warlock), after that points, attack increment will be useless, but, on our current state, even if 1% more attack would give you 1% more damage, another 1% will give you more than 1% damage until you reach that limit as long as formula isn't changed by devs


    i would like to know your test method because for me, even when i reach 2.5kk attack values, hot stew was insanely providing more damage output than 18% damage food in rofl. also most of the mages could confirm i believe even 18% matk food is better than 18% damage food in rofl. maybe my results are like this because lack of debuffers but i don't think there is a such buffer who can debuff every single unit in instance defense-wise, unless you are comparing only bosses.


    cheers

    the world chico, and everything in it.

    Like 2

    I did compare t13, hence 2,9 - my bad. Doesn't change my results though, especially since I did largely exxagerate the amount of patk you get out of the 2x Aoth variation.

    Yes I agree, my explanation was overly simplified, hence said exxageration to keep the proportions.


    Regarding dmg-food vs Stew, there is a certain interaction between several sources of percentual damage increments, but I won't go down that rabbit hole:D

    One more discussion point on the current state of 2 dex + 3 str versus 5 str gold accessories:


    If you compare these two scenarios, 2 dex give you an additional 2 item bonus of +2040 pa and + 420 crit (I ignore dex since it does not give any pa for champ/warr);


    If you go 2 str + 3 str golden, you gain extra 895 str relative to dex ring, both dex and str earrings gave same pa, but you of course now lose 2 dex set bonus. Extra 895 str is (x2 str = pa) 1790 pa, which in raw value would be less than 2040 pa you get from the 2 dex bonus, but since there are alot of attr and str buffs (hero, pets, % attr buffs etc), having this extra 895 str at the end fully buffed will be higher than initial raw pa gain of 2040. So at the end, opting for all 5 str would give you more total pa versus 2 dex and 3 str. However, you will of course miss added crit of 420 from 2 dex. So, at the end it would be as Sere said above be down to preference of having more pa and less crit or vise versa. I personally am going for all 5 str golden accessories, and in case someone is still thinking which way to go, i hope that offers an extra option to consider. I think both are viable along with simply keeping 2 old aoths instead, all 3 are not significantly different.


    Regards,

    Rakot

    "Święta Siła" u rycerza-maga zamiast zwiekszac sile mogla by zwiekszac inteligencje

    "Osłabienie Pancerza" moglo by obnizac obrone rowniez magiczną


    The "holy force" in the knight-mage, instead of increasing strength, could increase intelligence

    "Weakening armor" could be lowering also magic defense

    Minor tooltip bug for ch/m, Heavy Bash skill that changes when Elemental Defense is activated - duration of the debuff says (Buff4-Time) seconds - I suspect it should be 12 s as regular Heavy Bash skill. Not top priority to fix obviously but in case fixing others would be great to update.


    Thanks

    Since Champion is a class that is at least partially supposed to be a tank, I suggest increasing its maximum physical defense level (the one among the weapon skills) to 242.

    Currently Champion is the only class dedicated to tanking that has such a low cap (for comparison, Champion & Mage 182, Knight 272, Warrior 242, Warden 242).

    This should be a useful change, especially when taking into account that Champion/Knight is going to be a tank as well (at least according to charplan).

    In anticipation of a new weapon (gun) being introduced when new elite skills for several combo will come in sometime in the future, i wonder if it could be possible to add some time soon both gun and also already introduced spear as IS weapons that we could use for weapon leveling - I suspect to minimize work initial skins could be similar (maybe less flashy) to spear and gun skins already in game. Would give players a head start with leveling a gun weapon level (and spear if someone does not have one from rofl yet) before new elites come in. Hmm, just realized not sure any class can actually use gun atm, if not then I guess would be good to add IS items for gun and spear with the new elites patch


    Thanks!

    Quote from Serenadae

    Since Champion is a class that is at least partially supposed to be a tank, I suggest increasing its maximum physical defense level (the one among the weapon skills) to 242.

    Currently Champion is the only class dedicated to tanking that has such a low cap (for comparison, Champion & Mage 182, Knight 272, Warrior 242, Warden 242).

    This should be a useful change, especially when taking into account that Champion/Knight is going to be a tank as well (at least according to charplan).

    I completely agree, and I also would suggest for ch/k to increase max def level to that of a knight (272) - if i am not mistaken, the value can be different depending on a combo, thus for a dedicated tank such as future ch/k it does make sense to match the defense skill to that of a knight;

    Quote from Rakot_Hades

    In anticipation of a new weapon (gun) being introduced when new elite skills for several combo will come in sometime in the future, i wonder if it could be possible to add some time soon both gun and also already introduced spear as IS weapons that we could use for weapon leveling - I suspect to minimize work initial skins could be similar (maybe less flashy) to spear and gun skins already in game. Would give players a head start with leveling a gun weapon level (and spear if someone does not have one from rofl yet) before new elites come in. Hmm, just realized not sure any class can actually use gun atm, if not then I guess would be good to add IS items for gun and spear with the new elites patch


    Thanks!

    It would really make sense to add spear-type weapons to increase the variety of weapons in the game.

    Quote from Serenadae

    Since Champion is a class that is at least partially supposed to be a tank, I suggest increasing its maximum physical defense level (the one among the weapon skills) to 242.

    Currently Champion is the only class dedicated to tanking that has such a low cap (for comparison, Champion & Mage 182, Knight 272, Warrior 242, Warden 242).

    This should be a useful change, especially when taking into account that Champion/Knight is going to be a tank as well (at least according to charplan).

    Quote from Rakot_Hades
    Quote from Serenadae

    Since Champion is a class that is at least partially supposed to be a tank, I suggest increasing its maximum physical defense level (the one among the weapon skills) to 242.

    Currently Champion is the only class dedicated to tanking that has such a low cap (for comparison, Champion & Mage 182, Knight 272, Warrior 242, Warden 242).

    This should be a useful change, especially when taking into account that Champion/Knight is going to be a tank as well (at least according to charplan).

    I completely agree, and I also would suggest for ch/k to increase max def level to that of a knight (272) - if i am not mistaken, the value can be different depending on a combo, thus for a dedicated tank such as future ch/k it does make sense to match the defense skill to that of a knight;

    I must admit that you made a pretty big mistake about the champion class. Because the Champion class is not a tank class but a melee dps class. Therefore, the current values of the Champion class are quite good.

    "I must admit that you made a pretty big mistake about the champion class. Because the Champion class is not a tank class but a melee dps class. Therefore, the current values of the Champion class are quite good."


    Champion is actually a tank with use of shield form, hence the suggestion above

    Quote from Rakot_Hades

    "I must admit that you made a pretty big mistake about the champion class. Because the Champion class is not a tank class but a melee dps class. Therefore, the current values of the Champion class are quite good."


    Champion is actually a tank with use of shield form, hence the suggestion above

    If the champion is a class that uses shield form then the limit of 242, as Serenadae suggests, is pretty good. The 272 limit you said is too much, as it will be the same as the Knight class. But if the Champion class limit will be increased to 272 then the knight class limit should be 300. Because the main tank class is Knight, the Knight class must always have the highest limit. Have a nice day.

    "If the champion is a class that uses shield form then the limit of 242, as Serenadae suggests, is pretty good. The 272 limit you said is too much, as it will be the same as the Knight class. But if the Champion class limit will be increased to 272 then the knight class limit should be 300. Because the main tank class is Knight, the Knight class must always have the highest limit. Have a nice day"


    No, 272 def skill I suggested exclusively to ch/k which likely will be pure tank just like knight is, hence my suggestion; I do agree for all other champs except ch/k max of 242 makes sense, as Sere suggested